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Old 03-02-2019, 10:25 PM   #1
SoonerinNC
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Default Culture vs Winning

Does the OU womens basketball team really place culture ahead of winning? Some have said so. I simply don't know but Jan Ross's description of the point system is interesting. Wonder if all of the current team members have to approve a new recruit.

So if a certain culture is a driving force in the direction of the program, does it consist of hard work, self-improvement and mentoring of other players. Or is it a culture that values community service, trips to Hatii, and compatability with other team members.

Most of us know little or nothing about it. However, here are things to consider.

Chelsae Dungee is the leading scorer on the Arkansas team. 19.6 points and 4.5 rebounds a game. She has scored 25, 33, 18, 20, 41 points in her last 5 games. Yes she is below 40% shooting but so is Ana. Yes she has over 2 turnovers a game but only Taylor of our main players have less than 2 and the others are well over 2.

Nancy Mulkey is the second scoring leader on the Rice Owls basketball team which is ranked the 25th best team in the country. She has 12.8 points a game and 5.8 rebounds in 25 minutes of play.

Pellington, the reining Big 12 freshman of the year in 17-18 is contributing nothing after averaging 13.1 and 2.7 rebounds as a freshman.

Consider how we would look with Dungee, Mulkey, last year's version of Pellington along with Ana, Taylor, Maddie and Jessi.

So why is that not what we have. It has generally been accepted that Dungee and Mulkey wouldn't follow rules. Doesn't seem to be a problem this year. Or do we have the purist team in the country. Why has Pellington, a constant performer on the Canadian national team been unable to convert her skills to become a positive force in our program.

Is it that they don't fit the culture. And really what is the culture. We never hear of anyone working in the gym like Buddy and Isaih. Sherri has complained about leadership for year after year but seems to now be looking at Ana as a leader. Yet tonight Ana gets in early foul trouble and then when she is playing in the second half the team does poorer than in the first half without her. Don't get me wrong, Ana is one of my all time favorites in OU basketball but if she is to be a team leader she has to stay in the game and make her teammates better.

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Old 03-03-2019, 09:23 AM   #2
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Default Re: Culture vs Winning

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Originally Posted by SoonerinNC View Post
Does the OU womens basketball team really place culture ahead of winning? Some have said so. I simply don't know but Jan Ross's description of the point system is interesting. Wonder if all of the current team members have to approve a new recruit.

So if a certain culture is a driving force in the direction of the program, does it consist of hard work, self-improvement and mentoring of other players. Or is it a culture that values community service, trips to Hatii, and compatability with other team members.

Most of us know little or nothing about it. However, here are things to consider.

Chelsae Dungee is the leading scorer on the Arkansas team. 19.6 points and 4.5 rebounds a game. She has scored 25, 33, 18, 20, 41 points in her last 5 games. Yes she is below 40% shooting but so is Ana. Yes she has over 2 turnovers a game but only Taylor of our main players have less than 2 and the others are well over 2.

Nancy Mulkey is the second scoring leader on the Rice Owls basketball team which is ranked the 25th best team in the country. She has 12.8 points a game and 5.8 rebounds in 25 minutes of play.

Pellington, the reining Big 12 freshman of the year in 17-18 is contributing nothing after averaging 13.1 and 2.7 rebounds as a freshman.

Consider how we would look with Dungee, Mulkey, last year's version of Pellington along with Ana, Taylor, Maddie and Jessi.

So why is that not what we have. It has generally been accepted that Dungee and Mulkey wouldn't follow rules. Doesn't seem to be a problem this year. Or do we have the purist team in the country. Why has Pellington, a constant performer on the Canadian national team been unable to convert her skills to become a positive force in our program.

Is it that they don't fit the culture. And really what is the culture. We never hear of anyone working in the gym like Buddy and Isaih. Sherri has complained about leadership for year after year but seems to now be looking at Ana as a leader. Yet tonight Ana gets in early foul trouble and then when she is playing in the second half the team does poorer than in the first half without her. Don't get me wrong, Ana is one of my all time favorites in OU basketball but if she is to be a team leader she has to stay in the game and make her teammates better.

It's not an either/or thing. Looking from the outside, Kelvin Sampson and Lon Kruger's teams have very different cultures but they both create winning programs. I think both Kelvin and Lon would tell you that the secret is recruiting players that match the culture the coach wants to have. No matter what the culture is, the players have to buy in 100%.
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Old 03-03-2019, 01:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: Culture vs Winning

It's a bit of a stretch to say that Lon has developed a winning program here. Buddy Hield developed a final four team, with a lot of help. Since then we have not had a winning record. Next year will tell. If we don't compete for at least top3 big 12 and seed of no higher than 6 may be time for him to move along
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Old 03-03-2019, 01:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Culture vs Winning

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Originally Posted by bob the nailer View Post
It's a bit of a stretch to say that Lon has developed a winning program here. Buddy Hield developed a final four team, with a lot of help. Since then we have not had a winning record. Next year will tell. If we don't compete for at least top3 big 12 and seed of no higher than 6 may be time for him to move along
You do not follow basketball much do you?
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Old 03-04-2019, 11:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: Culture vs Winning

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Originally Posted by SoonerinNC View Post
Does the OU womens basketball team really place culture ahead of winning? Some have said so. I simply don't know but Jan Ross's description of the point system is interesting. Wonder if all of the current team members have to approve a new recruit.

So if a certain culture is a driving force in the direction of the program, does it consist of hard work, self-improvement and mentoring of other players. Or is it a culture that values community service, trips to Hatii, and compatability with other team members.

Most of us know little or nothing about it. However, here are things to consider.

Chelsae Dungee is the leading scorer on the Arkansas team. 19.6 points and 4.5 rebounds a game. She has scored 25, 33, 18, 20, 41 points in her last 5 games. Yes she is below 40% shooting but so is Ana. Yes she has over 2 turnovers a game but only Taylor of our main players have less than 2 and the others are well over 2.

Nancy Mulkey is the second scoring leader on the Rice Owls basketball team which is ranked the 25th best team in the country. She has 12.8 points a game and 5.8 rebounds in 25 minutes of play.

Pellington, the reining Big 12 freshman of the year in 17-18 is contributing nothing after averaging 13.1 and 2.7 rebounds as a freshman.

Consider how we would look with Dungee, Mulkey, last year's version of Pellington along with Ana, Taylor, Maddie and Jessi.

So why is that not what we have. It has generally been accepted that Dungee and Mulkey wouldn't follow rules. Doesn't seem to be a problem this year. Or do we have the purist team in the country. Why has Pellington, a constant performer on the Canadian national team been unable to convert her skills to become a positive force in our program.

Is it that they don't fit the culture. And really what is the culture. We never hear of anyone working in the gym like Buddy and Isaih. Sherri has complained about leadership for year after year but seems to now be looking at Ana as a leader. Yet tonight Ana gets in early foul trouble and then when she is playing in the second half the team does poorer than in the first half without her. Don't get me wrong, Ana is one of my all time favorites in OU basketball but if she is to be a team leader she has to stay in the game and make her teammates better.

Whatever the criteria for the "point system" ...it's not working. Has never worked. It appears that the only thing that matters is SC's ideals fulfilled. It's sad to see what appears to be such hypocrisy. How can you care so much about people in Haiti without first caring about your seniors receiving recognition and acts of kindness on senior day? If the "culture" is Christian based (that's been assumed by some), then one would think that you would not have a "point system" outside of skill set for Big XII play, development potential and academic eligibility. And if all these players that were passed up are such hellions, how is it that they experience success on the court, in the community (most every program has community service projects) and in the classroom when they attend elsewhere? Furthermore, if they don't meet ones moral standards, but are passionate about the game and their grades...wouldn't they be prime candidates for recruiting, signing and mentoring? It's one thing to talk Christianity and "community service" when the cameras are not rolling...and living it to the point where your words align with your actions.
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Old 03-04-2019, 12:45 PM   #6
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Dungee was bouncing even if Arkansas HC was the head the here.

She moves. A lot
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Old 03-04-2019, 01:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: Culture vs Winning

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It's a bit of a stretch to say that Lon has developed a winning program here. Buddy Hield developed a final four team, with a lot of help. Since then we have not had a winning record. Next year will tell. If we don't compete for at least top3 big 12 and seed of no higher than 6 may be time for him to move along
Just when I think I've read the dumbest statement in both the history and future of this board, another one comes along and hits the re-set button.
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Old 03-04-2019, 05:33 PM   #8
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I think ďwinningĒ is way down the list of Sherriís list of important things.

Whatís clearly most important to her is molding young women into good human beings (her definition of that is known only to her).

Frankly, I think winning might be third or fourth on her list.

IMO only, my GUESS of her list would be:

1. Helping her players become all that they can be/turning out good, solid people ó probably with strong Christian beliefs and practices.

2. Directing them through school to be good students who have a productive, lucrative career long after basketball.

3. Be good citizens (offshoot on No. 1), by giving of yourself (like helping in Haiti), etc.

4. Being good at basketball in case they want to achieve a pro career.

5. Representing their team and OU always in a positive and non-embarrassing way (no Jenna Plumleys).

6. Win basketball games at OU.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH ANY OF THAT...

EXCEPT:

When it gets in the way of fulfilling her number one job requirement and responsibility:

WINNING GAMES, TITLES, and CHAMPIONSHIPS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA.

Thatís the only reason sheís paid more than $1.2 million per year.

And folks ó she ainít even close to winning with this team and wonít be anytime soon unless Joe C. gets tired of losing or OU supporters do and express their opinions to Joe enough to make him act.

Now there are reports that Joe has, or will, give Sherri an ultimatum on winning and reversing the sinking program OUWBB has become.

Itís overdue, in my opinion.

What I absolutely believe is that the turn around better take place beginning next year ó and if doesnít happen then she needs to be removed as head coach.


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Old 03-04-2019, 07:28 PM   #9
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Bit confused on coach's Christian values priority.
If a good student who was 6'6" and was Muslim or Jewish, would Coale reject her out of hand because of her religion?
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:34 PM   #10
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It's truly naive to think there is any chance SC will be fired - or threatened with firing - after this year. Just drop that hateful, silly talk.

But my real reason for posting is to refer to a couple of games I have watched tonight.

The first is OSU vs K State. Folks. these are really weak teams. That says a lot about us this year. If you defeat these teams, you have not accomplished anything marvelous. And we still could not run the tables on them.

The second game is Baylor vs W Virginia. Both played pretty poorly tonight, but the amount of fouling was incredible. And not much of it was called. I think about the way the officials went after Ana in our last game, and realize these two teams would have no one who would even be eligible for the 2nd half if they were officiated that same way. Cox is the dirtiest player I have ever watched. Throws her arms all over the place, hits opponents in the head and throat regularly, but most of it is ignored. I wonder why? Very strange.
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:52 PM   #11
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Another thing you see when you watch other teams is that we have attendance far, far better than lots of these teams. I bet there may not have been 250 people at the OSU vs K State game.

And the West Virginia crowd appeared well below 1000 fans in the stands.

This idea we are going to make a few changes and bring in 10,000 fans is fantasy. That day has passed.
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:14 PM   #12
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Bit confused on coach's Christian values priority.
If a good student who was 6'6" and was Muslim or Jewish, would Coale reject her out of hand because of her religion?
Would reject her because she was 6-6, not because of her religion. lol
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:23 PM   #13
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Bit confused on coach's Christian values priority.

If a good student who was 6'6" and was Muslim or Jewish, would Coale reject her out of hand because of her religion?


Of course she wouldnít. What I mean is I think she values a belief in a higher deity and the basic tenants of such a belief.


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Old 03-04-2019, 08:31 PM   #14
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If you build it they will come.

Oregon State, not even a top 10 team has been running 5-7,000 in home conference games just had a capacity crowd in a game against Oregon.

South Carolina, ranked about the same has been over 10,000 people in a number of games and showed an attendance of 18,000 in a game against higher ranked Mississippi State.

The top teams are drawing people just as we did once.

As for Dungee, I know she has been a flighty sort but she had a lock on a starting position as a soph. Maybe a little leadership from the coaching staff would have kept her at OU. Moreover, the prospect of a team that would compete with Baylor could have mattered. She is not likely to have that strong a team at Arkansas under the current coach so maybe it would not have mattered. Who loses players who are a lock to start as a sophomore after a lot of playing time as a frosh.

In a recent game we started 4 guards if you count Maddie as a legit 3. What team does that? We have Jessi, Tatum, Ana, Taylor and Pellington sharing time at the guard spots when Pellington plays. And they are all back if Pellington stays and Gibson coming in. And still no sure legit 4's and 5's.

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Old 03-05-2019, 10:20 AM   #15
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It's truly naive to think there is any chance SC will be fired - or threatened with firing - after this year. Just drop that hateful, silly talk.

But my real reason for posting is to refer to a couple of games I have watched tonight.

The first is OSU vs K State. Folks. these are really weak teams. That says a lot about us this year. If you defeat these teams, you have not accomplished anything marvelous. And we still could not run the tables on them.

The second game is Baylor vs W Virginia. Both played pretty poorly tonight, but the amount of fouling was incredible. And not much of it was called. I think about the way the officials went after Ana in our last game, and realize these two teams would have no one who would even be eligible for the 2nd half if they were officiated that same way. Cox is the dirtiest player I have ever watched. Throws her arms all over the place, hits opponents in the head and throat regularly, but most of it is ignored. I wonder why? Very strange.
I AGREE!! Cox is so dirty!! I hate watching her and seeing what she gets away with, for the most part. A true reflection of KM that she has a player like that? Probably. SHE wants to win. And apparently would play anyway to do so. There's gotta be a happy medium between her and SC somewhere out there.
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Old 03-05-2019, 10:41 AM   #16
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If you build it they will come.

As for Dungee, I know she has been a flighty sort but she had a lock on a starting position as a soph. Maybe a little leadership from the coaching staff would have kept her at OU. Moreover, the prospect of a team that would compete with Baylor could have mattered. She is not likely to have that strong a team at Arkansas under the current coach so maybe it would not have mattered. Who loses players who are a lock to start as a sophomore after a lot of playing time as a frosh.
Dungee's issues at OU were off the court which is her history. It has been reported she did not want anyone having a say regarding what she did on her own private time off the court.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:43 AM   #17
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I doubt she's getting much better from Neighbors over at U of A...maybe she's grown up since then though. She's def changed physically. Too bad. Her and Ana could have been a Solid duo!
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Old 03-05-2019, 01:01 PM   #18
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Dungee's issues at OU were off the court which is her history. It has been reported she did not want anyone having a say regarding what she did on her own private time off the court.
This is what has been alleged. Probably about as accurate as we will get.

We never really know. Sometimes, we see posts of rumors about why someone has left or might leave. I don't remember any member of the women's basketball program making any comment about any player who had left. I don't remember a lot of players who have made very clear statements. I have seen thoughts about why Harden, Dungee, and Mulkey left. I don't remember Sherri making a single comment about any of them, including Jenna Plumley. I think she was involved in helping Jenna transfer. We did see a story by Kornet, which was not really unfavorable. I have seen other boards post comments on why Dungee and Mulkey left. I get the impression that Mulkey was more involved with her personal life.

I don't think we have a clue.

I also don't think we have a clue as to the specifics of the culture. A lot of supposition revolves around religion, in both the basketball and softball program. I have seen absolutely nothing to verify that. If I believed that there were religious requirements in either program, I would be demanding their dismissal from the university in any capacity.

For the most part, I regard all of these supposed problems with how they run the program as a bit of a message board stage play. Coach A demands that all recruits be vegetarians until they have attained a starter's role. Coach B demands that daily prayer meetings be attended,, or you are not allowed to practice with the team. I can't verify that these rules actually exist. But, then, none of the rules described have any firmer basis in fact. We simply don't know. It does result in some strawman situations for which there are constant attacks. But, it is only straw.
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Old 03-05-2019, 01:43 PM   #19
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OU does - or did have at one time - a weekly Bible study group, Iím pretty sure.

I saw a schedule once for a player that had it listed on their weekly schedule as ďteam Bible study.Ē

Have no idea if it was mandatory or voluntary or part of the program or an outside group similar to the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

Frankly, Iíve always been surprised no one - especially the press - has inquired about that.

I donít think legally a requirement like that can be made.


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Old 03-06-2019, 11:53 AM   #20
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OU does - or did have at one time - a weekly Bible study group, Iím pretty sure.

I saw a schedule once for a player that had it listed on their weekly schedule as ďteam Bible study.Ē

Have no idea if it was mandatory or voluntary or part of the program or an outside group similar to the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

Frankly, Iíve always been surprised no one - especially the press - has inquired about that.

I donít think legally a requirement like that can be made.


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Most programs have "voluntary" meetings of one type or another. There is also that infamous NCAA rule that summer workouts are "voluntary". But try missing them and see how far down the bench (or off) you'll land.
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:56 PM   #21
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Exactly.


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Old 03-06-2019, 04:27 PM   #22
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.......

Now there are reports that Joe has, or will, give Sherri an ultimatum on winning and reversing the sinking program OUWBB has become.

.....
Interesting. Is there somewhere to go where I could read these reports? If this is actually based on something concrete, I would find it to be most interesting reading. So far, my internet research has not turned anything like this up. (And yes, I realize that just because some "professional journalist" reports something, that does not mean it is true and accurate.)
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Old 03-06-2019, 05:06 PM   #23
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Itís been discussed on both of the unofficial OUWBB boards. This one and Sooner Normís board. Thatís what I meant by reports.

If there had been a real stories ó I would have named the official new sources. I donít know if there have been any news stories. Iíve never searched the internet to determine that.

However, I do know for a fact that Sherriís future has been discussed by a few local and national journalists between themselves.

I know that because I am personal friends with some of them.


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Old 03-06-2019, 05:31 PM   #24
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Thanks. I was wondering if there really was something concrete.

Discussions "by a few local and national journalists between themselves" is really no more insightful or useful than speculation by us on-lookers as we put forth speculation on message boards.

The normal procedure at many (most/all) athletic departments is for the AD to evaluate a coaches performance, of each coach in each sport. I think we can safely ASSUME that, after the end of the season, Joe and Sherri will discuss the state of the WBB program and what needs to be done moving forward. As a good administrator, Joe will expect a specific plan with benchmarks from Sherri.

Regardless of culture, history or prior success, Sherri needs to right the ship. It appears to be slowly sinking.
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Old 03-06-2019, 05:52 PM   #25
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Journalists always know more than they publish. Stuff that is right, wrong and in between.

I agree every coach always goes through and end of season session with their ADs.

I donít believe anyone believes those discussion are the same every year.

Obviously, this end-of-season review is likely to be harder on Sherri and her staff than in previous years.

This season follows a season of winning only a small number of games more than the squad lost. These two seasons have been two of the worst in Sherriís career.

The program is struggling.

I think Joe will make it perfectly clear to Sherri that things have to improve all the way around and it needs to be sooner rather than later.

To do any less would be a dereliction of duty for him.

Joe C doesnít mind tackling the most distasteful of his duties. Thereís plenty proof of that.

Thatís why I believe some of the board posts and some of my journalism contacts.

Notice I did not say he was going to fire her.





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