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Old 11-20-2019, 02:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

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We've also missed 4 of the last 10. And the last two years, while getting in, it's been by the skin of our teeth while finishing below .500 in league play each year.

Hardly the measure of a consistent program.
2 of those years was Capel's dumpster fire. The last 2 years OU wasn't even considered a bubble team. I'd like for them to be better than the last 2 years, but definitely not by the skin of our teeth.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:15 PM   #27
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2 of those years was Capel's dumpster fire. The last 2 years OU wasn't even considered a bubble team. I'd like for them to be better than the last 2 years, but definitely not by the skin of our teeth.
I didn't realize this was a question about just the current staff? Even if it was Capel, it's still recent enough that it impacts my feelings towards the program.

It can be by the skin of our teeth even if we weren't the last ones in. We were one or two games away from not making it. That is by the skin of our teeth. Especially considering we beat KU late last season, an unexpected win given the circumstances. Lose that, go 6-10 in the Big 12, and I'm not sure we're in.

Either way, I think we can all agree that finishing below .500 in conference play is unacceptable for our program. We're better than that.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:23 PM   #28
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

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I didn't realize this was a question about just the current staff? Even if it was Capel, it's still recent enough that it impacts my feelings towards the program.

It can be by the skin of our teeth even if we weren't the last ones in. We were one or two games away from not making it. That is by the skin of our teeth. Especially considering we beat KU late last season, an unexpected win given the circumstances. Lose that, go 6-10 in the Big 12, and I'm not sure we're in.

Either way, I think we can all agree that finishing below .500 in conference play is unacceptable for our program. We're better than that.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:44 PM   #29
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

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I didn't realize this was a question about just the current staff? Even if it was Capel, it's still recent enough that it impacts my feelings towards the program.

It can be by the skin of our teeth even if we weren't the last ones in. We were one or two games away from not making it. That is by the skin of our teeth. Especially considering we beat KU late last season, an unexpected win given the circumstances. Lose that, go 6-10 in the Big 12, and I'm not sure we're in.

Either way, I think we can all agree that finishing below .500 in conference play is unacceptable for our program. We're better than that.
There hasn't been a single season since the late 90's that OU entered Selection Sunday as a true bubble team, even though some people pretend like that was the case the past two seasons. And the KU win last year wasn't unexpected. That was, at worst, a pick 'em game, so to act like we saved our season by getting one surprising win is not accurate.

More to the point, it is crazy to let the only terrible coach we have had in the past 40 years affect your current feelings for the program. He has thankfully been gone for almost nine years. The players in the program now were in middle school when Capel was here. If anything, the miserable years under Capel stand out precisely because they are so rare for OU. Lon inherited a worse situation that Kelvin inherited from a talent and morale standpoint, turned it around just as quickly, and almost immediately got us back to being one of the very few schools in the country that is almost always dancing.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:50 PM   #30
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

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There hasn't been a single season since the late 90's that OU entered Selection Sunday as a true bubble team, even though some people pretend like that was the case the past two seasons. And the KU win last year wasn't unexpected. That was, at worst, a pick 'em game, so to act like we saved our season by getting one surprising win is not accurate.

More to the point, it is crazy to let the only terrible coach we have had in the past 40 years affect your current feelings for the program. He has thankfully been gone for almost nine years. The players in the program now were in middle school when Capel was here. If anything, the miserable years under Capel stand out precisely because they are so rare for OU. Lon inherited a worse situation that Kelvin inherited from a talent and morale standpoint, turned it around just as quickly, and almost immediately got us back to being one of the very few schools in the country that is almost always dancing.
He (Kruger) also has a 72-72 conference record, so you can stop trying to shove all that sunshine down my throat. Three straight under .500 Big 12 seasons. And if you want to refuse to realize that we've been a game or two from not making the Dance, you can do that but don't expect me to. Just b/c we don't meet the widely used definition of "on the bubble", doesn't mean that weren't still playing our way in the last week of the season. That's bubble to me.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:03 PM   #31
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

Final Four
Deep Tournament run
Consistently making the NCAA tournament
I would love to win the conference. It comes after all of those.

The other things(conference rank, beating other teams, etc) are probably handled by the above things. The least of my concerns are beating OSU, Texas, etc. As long as we are having successful seasons, winning those games don't matter. We aren't OSU or A&M. We don't define our success by beating our rivals.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:23 PM   #32
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He (Kruger) also has a 72-72 conference record, so you can stop trying to shove all that sunshine down my throat. Three straight under .500 Big 12 seasons. And if you want to refuse to realize that we've been a game or two from not making the Dance, you can do that but don't expect me to. Just b/c we don't meet the widely used definition of "on the bubble", doesn't mean that weren't still playing our way in the last week of the season. That's bubble to me.
I didn't refer to conference record because your own initial post made clear that your top priorities are consistently making the tournament and avoiding terrible seasons. So judged by your own stated preference, your constant implications that the program isn't succeeding is ironic. If you want to change the criteria, feel free. There is no question that Kelvin had a much better conference record in a conference that wasn't nearly as good. There is also no question that Kelvin fared much better in KC.

As far as playing our way in the last week of the season -- not quite. We lost two of our last three games last season and still made it with ease. The previous year, we went into Selection Sunday with two wins in the final several weeks yet still made the tournament.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:41 PM   #33
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

1. Individual player improvement through the season. While I would be ecstatic for OU to have the talent to compete for national championships, what I really want is for OU to be a solid program that develops talent during the season to be at their best at the end of the season.

2. Consistently maintaining upper-echelon status within the conference. Like others, I enjoy rooting for a good team over a four-month stretch whereas the NCAA tournament requires a bit of luck for a deep run.

3. Reaching the NCAA tourney with the expectation of a potential run.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:41 PM   #34
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I didn't refer to conference record because your own initial post made clear that your top priorities are consistently making the tournament and avoiding terrible seasons.
That is not what my post said. At least, that was not the entirety of what my post said.

The talk of consistency can be taken separately from the talk of consistently making the Dance. Just like that is separate from consistently finishing towards the top of the Big 12. Or, really how I meant the first two sentences, just consistency in the program in general. That includes ALL of those items, not just making the tourney. But how we've made the tourney kind of proves my point, whether you see it that way or not.

I, personally, feel like this program is all over the place. Big ups, and big downs. I don't like that. I don't think that lends to us being the best program we can be. There is ZERO excuse for this program to finish under .500 in the Big 12 three straight years. None. Especially in years 6, 7, and 8 of a coach's tenure at OU.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:49 PM   #35
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

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There hasn't been a single season since the late 90's that OU entered Selection Sunday as a true bubble team, even though some people pretend like that was the case the past two seasons. And the KU win last year wasn't unexpected. That was, at worst, a pick 'em game, so to act like we saved our season by getting one surprising win is not accurate.

More to the point, it is crazy to let the only terrible coach we have had in the past 40 years affect your current feelings for the program. He has thankfully been gone for almost nine years. The players in the program now were in middle school when Capel was here. If anything, the miserable years under Capel stand out precisely because they are so rare for OU. Lon inherited a worse situation that Kelvin inherited from a talent and morale standpoint, turned it around just as quickly, and almost immediately got us back to being one of the very few schools in the country that is almost always dancing.
That's no entirely true. Two years ago we were the last team before the 4 teams in the play in games in Dayton. One of the last 5 in is certainly a bubble team. Other than that spot on.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:59 PM   #36
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

I would like to add that I typically like to focus on regularly attainable goals.... The entire point of the NCAA Tournament is to crown a national champion. It is a reward for a good season, but it's purpose is to crown a champion.

That being said.... OU has been playing basketball for 112 years and has not won this event. They have made it to the championship game of that event 2 times in 112 years.

However.... winning the Big 12 tournament and the Big 12 regular season should regularly be in play.. Being a "power" in the Big 12 conference is an obtainable goal that doesn't require doing something that has not been done a single time in 112 years.

As a fan then, the most important outcome for me is regular season, and especially conference performance.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:32 PM   #37
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

We had some bad years at the start of this decade, but all-in-all, it was hardly a bad decade in regards to the NCAA Tournament. While I'm not one to say that if we don't do well in the Dance it's a bad season, it has to be a measuring stick.

NCAA Tournament, 1980s: 7 out of 10 years, 1 FF, 4 Sweet 16+ trips, record 14-7 (clearly our best decade).

1990s: 7 out of 10 years, 1 Sweet 16 trip, record 3-7 (clearly our worst decade of the past four).

2000s: 8 out of 10 years: 1 FF, 3 Sweet 16+ trips, record 13-8 (not bad!).

2010s: 6 out of 10 years, 1 FF, 2 Sweet 16+ trips, record 7-6 (considering we were 0-2 in the first half of this decade, I'll take it).

Based on the above, I'd say we've had a nice run since the start of the Billy Tubbs era, with only the first half of the 1990s and the first half of the 2010s being a downward curve. Let's hope the 2020s are more in line with the 1980s or 2000s. Those would be my expectations.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:45 PM   #38
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

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I didn't realize this was a question about just the current staff? Even if it was Capel, it's still recent enough that it impacts my feelings towards the program.

It can be by the skin of our teeth even if we weren't the last ones in. We were one or two games away from not making it. That is by the skin of our teeth. Especially considering we beat KU late last season, an unexpected win given the circumstances. Lose that, go 6-10 in the Big 12, and I'm not sure we're in.

Either way, I think we can all agree that finishing below .500 in conference play is unacceptable for our program. We're better than that.
It was based off you’re reply to a comment on Kruger. But I understand we differ because you put more emphasis on conference record. Even though I’d obviously like OU to compete for conference championships I put just as much emphasis on non-conference. Especially since the non-con has been really tough recently.

I think this group will have good runs in the coming years & love the way Kruger runs a program.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:44 AM   #39
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

1. NCAA tournament success (Final Four is a double bonus)
2. Regular season conference success
3. Overall regular season success
4. Big 12 tournament success

I really need both and 1 and 2 to feel satisfied with a season. Last year was fun in the tournament but I can't be happy with lower tier conference results. When Kelvin was finishing top 4 in conference and winning the Big 12 tournament often but couldn't find NCAA tourney success, that was a mixed bag as well. I know I'm spoiled but I was disappointed the we didn't win the conference during our Final Four year, because we were talented enough that we should have.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:19 AM   #40
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

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He (Kruger) also has a 72-72 conference record, so you can stop trying to shove all that sunshine down my throat. Three straight under .500 Big 12 seasons. And if you want to refuse to realize that we've been a game or two from not making the Dance, you can do that but don't expect me to. Just b/c we don't meet the widely used definition of "on the bubble", doesn't mean that weren't still playing our way in the last week of the season. That's bubble to me.
as has been said and proven this is a much better basketball conf than OU has ever been in
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:09 AM   #41
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Default Re: As a fan, what is the most important outcome for you?

I’d love to get back to winning 25+ games a year, which means you probably finished in the top half of the big 12....with the occasional 30+ win season (maybe once out of every 7-8 seasons), which would likely mean you make it to either the final four or the elite 8.

Making the Final Four at least 1 of every 10 seasons is very doable for a program like OU.
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Old 11-21-2019, 03:16 PM   #42
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as has been said and proven this is a much better basketball conf than OU has ever been in
It has been "proven". Especially not that it is better enough that it has a significant impact on expected results. Flat out, we haven't been consistently as good on the basketball floor as we were prior to Capel. That's a fact that has been proven.
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:36 PM   #43
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If we didn't win a single game in 9 seasons, but won a national championship, I'd take that decade. That's how bad I want a title. Do I envy Tech's program? No. But I envy that title so, so bad. **** consistency at this point.

I wouldn't be saying that had we ever won one.
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:37 PM   #44
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as has been said and proven this is a much better basketball conf than OU has ever been in
You use the word "proven" far too loosely.
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Old 11-21-2019, 04:45 PM   #45
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You use the word "proven" far too loosely.
When every relevant, provable, objective fact establishes something, that is proof.
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Old 11-21-2019, 05:14 PM   #46
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Do I envy Tech's program? No. But I envy that title so, so bad. **** consistency at this point.
Which title is it you envy -- Tech's 2019 Outdoor Track and Field championship or its 1993 Women's Basketball championship? Those are the only two national champion teams Tech has ever had.
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Old 11-21-2019, 05:44 PM   #47
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Which title is it you envy -- Tech's 2019 Outdoor Track and Field championship or its 1993 Women's Basketball championship? Those are the only two national champion teams Tech has ever had.
LOL! Perhaps a more enticing comparison would be Arkansas. Would our fan base want a decade like the Razorbacks had in the 1990s (1Natty, 3FF) if it meant basically being a non-factor for the next two decades after? That may be a tough one. 20 years of not having much to root for...that’s a long time.
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:29 PM   #48
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Which title is it you envy -- Tech's 2019 Outdoor Track and Field championship or its 1993 Women's Basketball championship? Those are the only two national champion teams Tech has ever had.
Are you nuts, they dominate meat judging like no other.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:01 PM   #49
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It has been "proven". Especially not that it is better enough that it has a significant impact on expected results. Flat out, we haven't been consistently as good on the basketball floor as we were prior to Capel. That's a fact that has been proven.
Meh...the difference is consistency during the Kelvin era, but the comparisons based on NCAA Tournament success are strikingly similar. We basically replace a bunch of "one and done seasons" with losing seasons. Yeah, we all prefer the former, but that is not a monumental difference if there is no additional NCAA Tournament success.

Kelvin Era: 1 Final Four
Post-Kelvin: 1 Final Four

Kelvin: 2 Elite Eight
Post-Kelvin: 2 Elite Eight

Kelvin: 3 Sweet 16
Post-Kelvin: 3 Sweet 16

Kelvin: 5 Round of 32
Post-Kelvin: 5 Round of 32
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:27 PM   #50
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When every relevant, provable, objective fact establishes something, that is proof.
Pretty strong overreach.
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