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Old 05-05-2020, 10:21 AM   #26
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Default Re: TCU Gets Notice of Allegations from NCAA

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Like Capel!
I still liked that hire, for what it SHOULD have been. Didn't work out. Can't be scared to make changes for fear of failing. If it happens, it happens. Identify it and move on.
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:21 AM   #27
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Like Capel!
Bad hire... but that doesn't mean all hires will be bad. Capel went to an elite 8 and was 25-1 in that season. By the logic applied above, that now becomes his "ceiling"... They said Lon's ceiling was the final 4 because he got there, so Capel must be an Elite 8 coach, because he got there, right?
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:25 AM   #28
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Why does it have to be somebody specific?

We have how many years (decades) of Lon's career to reflect on? We know what he is. We know what his ceiling is. We know that we've only recruited two HS 4* or better kids since TY's class (Harmon and Manek), according to 247.

I just want somebody with a higher upside. We can argue about "who" later.
Fire your coach first, plan for a replacement later? Interesting approach. Thankfully, it's not one Joe C. is likely to take.

As for wanting somebody with a higher upside than Coach Kruger, I get that. I'll go you one better: I want us to have the best coach in college hoops. But I don't have a clue (and neither do you) how to figure out just who that coach is or how to get him. We can play Pin the Tail on the Coaching Chart and hope we get lucky but there is no coach out there that we could snag who is guaranteed to be better than our likely Hall of Fame coach. Not one. It would be a crap shoot.

I'm reminded of all the guys on OU football boards SCREAMING for months for Mike Stoops to be brought back.

Then, of course, all those same guys spent years *****ing and moaning about Mike Stoops' performance as DC. And not a single one of them copped to the fact that they'd demanded his return.

Heck, we don't even have to include football. I remember all too well how many trashed Sampson relentlessly throughout his tenure at OU. And now we frequently see threads praising him to the skies, with (I didn't keep a list of names but I've no doubt) posts praising him from guys who trashed him when he was in Norman.
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:30 AM   #29
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Fire your coach first, plan for a replacement later? Interesting approach. Thankfully, it's not one Joe C. is likely to take.
lol, just b/c I don't have a name to give doesn't mean I wouldn't expect Joe C. to.

Very similar to how I as a fan can take an opponent lightly, but that doesn't mean the team should be.

smh
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: TCU Gets Notice of Allegations from NCAA

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Bad hire... but that doesn't mean all hires will be bad. Capel went to an elite 8 and was 25-1 in that season. By the logic applied above, that now becomes his "ceiling"... They said Lon's ceiling was the final 4 because he got there, so Capel must be an Elite 8 coach, because he got there, right?
lon has been to multi final 4's
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:46 AM   #31
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lol, just b/c I don't have a name to give doesn't mean I wouldn't expect Joe C. to.

Very similar to how I as a fan can take an opponent lightly, but that doesn't mean the team should be.

smh
Right.... it's not your job to hire a promising replacement coach. You are a fan. I threw out some names, but we simply don't have access to the data that Joe C would. We also can't interview these guys, ask them relevant questions, get a feel for their vision, etc. It's an absurd request. Not only do we not have access to that, we aren't paid to conduct that kind of research. That is Joe C's job.
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:49 AM   #32
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Default Re: TCU Gets Notice of Allegations from NCAA

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Bad hire... but that doesn't mean all hires will be bad. Capel went to an elite 8 and was 25-1 in that season. By the logic applied above, that now becomes his "ceiling"... They said Lon's ceiling was the final 4 because he got there, so Capel must be an Elite 8 coach, because he got there, right?
LK has multiple final fours and is a consistent winner. How is Capel doing at Pitt? If LK fell like Capel after Buddy and/or got OU in trouble then I’d say fire him. He’s done neither.

The guy that Wake Forrest just hires would’ve been the only mid-major coach I would’ve liked to see as a replacement, but only if LK retired.
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:52 AM   #33
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I still liked that hire, for what it SHOULD have been. Didn't work out. Can't be scared to make changes for fear of failing. If it happens, it happens. Identify it and move on.
So you’d rather take a chance at another Capel while OU is having solid seasons & is staying clear of all the show company scandals? LK has 2-4 years left & is still winning & you’d like to go get an unknown, that’s a good way to be identified as a job to stay away from.
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Old 05-05-2020, 11:49 AM   #34
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lon has been to multi final 4's
He's been to 2 in 34 years of college coaching. He's been to one additional Elite 8. So in 34 years of coaching, he's made the Elite 8 or better 3 times.

I wouldn't exactly hold my breath that another Elite 8 or better is coming our way under Lon anytime soon. Especially with recent recruiting. 3 star kids aren't going to get us there.
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Old 05-05-2020, 11:55 AM   #35
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So you’d rather take a chance at another Capel while OU is having solid seasons & is staying clear of all the show company scandals? LK has 2-4 years left & is still winning & you’d like to go get an unknown, that’s a good way to be identified as a job to stay away from.
I don't consider finishing under .500 in conference play three of the last four seasons, and right at .500 in conference play the other season, having solid seasons. I know we've continued to make the Dance (barely a couple of times), and I know our winning percentage OOC has been solid, but I personally don't feel like the program is on solid footing. Our HS recruiting continues to go backwards. We're still recruiting WAY too many projects, then watching them transfer out of the program in record numbers. We're continuing, for the most part, to get transfers in that aren't all that highly thought off. Reaves and possibly Gibson being slight exceptions to that. Constant roster turnover. Don't even know if Gibson is going to be eligible next year, and if not, I'm not sure we're a tourney team, which absolutely wastes the senior seasons for Manek, Reaves, Williams, and Kur.

The program may be stable in that I don't see a 10 win season on our horizon, but it's not stable in some of the ways I'd like it to be. Our inability to recruit the caliber of HS kids that we need to remain a top 25 program continues to lead to us reaching for transfers and roster plugs. Been that way basically since Buddy and his class left. That isn't good. I feel like, to some extent, the game is passing Kruger by.

And that keeping us out of trouble crap is just that. There are PLENTY of coaches out there can do better than .500 in the Big 12 without cheating.

Edit: BTW, I'm already on record as saying that as long as Lon gets us to the Dance, Joe C. isn't going to put any pressure on him. We BEGGED Lon to come to OU. Lon isn't going to get fired. Which leaves me pretty "meh" about OU basketball, b/c it means we're going to limp along for the next few years until Lon is ready to retire.
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Old 05-05-2020, 12:02 PM   #36
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LK has multiple final fours and is a consistent winner. How is Capel doing at Pitt? If LK fell like Capel after Buddy and/or got OU in trouble then I’d say fire him. He’s done neither.

The guy that Wake Forrest just hires would’ve been the only mid-major coach I would’ve liked to see as a replacement, but only if LK retired.
So there is literally one coach out there from the lower levels that you think could do better than Lon? Seriously, one guy?

Your opinion of the program is very low.
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Old 05-05-2020, 12:04 PM   #37
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Default Re: TCU Gets Notice of Allegations from NCAA

tcu...louisville...lon needs to go. lol.
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Old 05-05-2020, 12:15 PM   #38
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I don't consider finishing under .500 in conference play three of the last four seasons, and right at .500 in conference play the other season, having solid seasons. I know we've continued to make the Dance (barely a couple of times), and I know our winning percentage OOC has been solid, but I personally don't feel like the program is on solid footing. Our HS recruiting continues to go backwards. We're still recruiting WAY too many projects, then watching them transfer out of the program in record numbers. We're continuing, for the most part, to get transfers in that aren't all that highly thought off. Reaves and possibly Gibson being slight exceptions to that. Constant roster turnover. Don't even know if Gibson is going to be eligible next year, and if not, I'm not sure we're a tourney team, which absolutely wastes the senior seasons for Manek, Reaves, Williams, and Kur.

The program may be stable in that I don't see a 10 win season on our horizon, but it's not stable in some of the ways I'd like it to be. Our inability to recruit the caliber of HS kids that we need to remain a top 25 program continues to lead to us reaching for transfers and roster plugs. Been that way basically since Buddy and his class left. That isn't good. I feel like, to some extent, the game is passing Kruger by.

And that keeping us out of trouble crap is just that. There are PLENTY of coaches out there can do better than .500 in the Big 12 without cheating.

Edit: BTW, I'm already on record as saying that as long as Lon gets us to the Dance, Joe C. isn't going to put any pressure on him. We BEGGED Lon to come to OU. Lon isn't going to get fired. Which leaves me pretty "meh" about OU basketball, b/c it means we're going to limp along for the next few years until Lon is ready to retire.
I’ve said numerous times conference record could be better, but that’s not the whole season which is what I look at. I think recruiting is solid based on today’s landscape. You say that their are plenty of coaches that can do better in the Big12 that don’t cheat? KU, BU, OSU, TCU are all in trouble or have recently been in trouble. UT does the least with their talent, by far, in the conference. And still the conference is tougher than its ever been.

Transfers are the way things are right now, every program is going through this. Bienemy is the one transfer that I’m surprised or disappointed that left. Thomas, M’baye, Reaves, Gibson are better than any player that has transferred out, McGusty was a huge pain or he’d be the exception.

In what way is the game passing Kruger by? He has good defenses, attacks mismatches, has good BLOB & OOT plays. A more fluid half court offense is something I would say needs to be better. The program is stable because we aren’t seeing 10 win seasons? Lol OU has made the past 3 tournaments & 7 of last 8.

We can argue about this even more, but it’s just going to lead to our past arguments on the subject. I’m glad to consent that we disagree and aren’t going to change each other’s mind.

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Old 05-05-2020, 12:32 PM   #39
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So there is literally one coach out there from the lower levels that you think could do better than Lon? Seriously, one guy?

Your opinion of the program is very low.
I said there’s one that I think would. All the others would be crapshoots, which I don’t think the program is near taking that chance.

7 of last 8 seasons have had tourney appearances, FF, Sweet 16. All doing this after cleaning up the program & keeping it clean. That’s hard to do today. So I don’t know what your opinion of the program is, but I’m very satisfied for LK to finish up in the next 2-4 years going this way.
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Old 05-05-2020, 12:49 PM   #40
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I said there’s one that I think would. All the others would be crapshoots, which I don’t think the program is near taking that chance.

7 of last 8 seasons have had tourney appearances, FF, Sweet 16. All doing this after cleaning up the program & keeping it clean. That’s hard to do today. So I don’t know what your opinion of the program is, but I’m very satisfied for LK to finish up in the next 2-4 years going this way.
Interesting.
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Old 05-05-2020, 01:44 PM   #41
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One thing is clear with this thread and others like it. The OU basketball fan and the program should not concern themselves with winning conference titles or, heaven forbid, a national title. We should all just be happy making the tourney. That’s it. That is what the OU basketball program has become. We should just concern ourselves with making the tourney and being above mediocre. Anything more is a pipe dream and we shouldn’t dare to chase that dream.

If that’s the case, cut the budget in half and redistribute that money to football, softball, and gymnastics where those programs can continue to chase greatness. If we’re accepting slightly above mediocre, we’re paying too much for it.

We need to go all in or stop pretending we care.
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Old 05-05-2020, 02:03 PM   #42
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One thing is clear with this thread and others like it. The OU basketball fan and the program should not concern themselves with winning conference titles or, heaven forbid, a national title. We should all just be happy making the tourney. That’s it. That is what the OU basketball program has become. We should just concern ourselves with making the tourney and being above mediocre. Anything more is a pipe dream and we shouldn’t dare to chase that dream.

If that’s the case, cut the budget in half and redistribute that money to football, softball, and gymnastics where those programs can continue to chase greatness. If we’re accepting slightly above mediocre, we’re paying too much for it.

We need to go all in or stop pretending we care.
If you think making the tournament every year is "slightly above mediocre," you are being willfully ignorant. There are only a handful of schools to make it it 7 of the past 8 years, and we are one of them.
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Old 05-05-2020, 02:05 PM   #43
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We need to go all in or stop pretending we care.
What's going all in? Hiring a new coach every five years if the current one hasn't at least made it to the Final Four over that span?

You're done with Kruger. We get it. So what will the next coach have to do to satisfy you? How long a leash will he get? Will you be ok with him playing a little dirty on recruiting trail? How often will he need to win the conference title outright over a five-year span to stay off the hot seat? If he makes it to a Final Four but misses out on the tourney the other four seasons, will that suffice?

The naysayers have come up with a very specific and particular metric for Kruger: Conference play is all that matters. They discount, if not outright dismiss, all other accomplishments. That we've played one of the toughest schedules year in and year out, consistently put up a good-to-very-good non-conference record, made the tourney almost every year, made a Sweet 16 and a Final Four -- none of that matters. He gets credit for none of that. Conference play is the only metric (and even when we finish third in the conference in a year we were picked, I think, sixth, no credit is given).

So step up. Spell it out. Be as specific with this hypothetical new coach as you are with Kruger. Do it in advance, so we'll know what you'll be expecting and demanding and *****ing about if it doesn't happen.

Because otherwise the demands will just change every year, the goal posts will be moved, so to speak. The metrics will be fluid, changeable to fit whatever has you guys disgruntled on a given day, week or month. And you'll be calling for that guy's head, too.
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Old 05-05-2020, 02:11 PM   #44
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Maybe OU basketball fans should worry about showing up to games....might help recruiting a bit, but that rarely happens for the last 40 + years
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:05 PM   #45
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I agree with skyvue and BCSooners. We are a football school that does well due in part to having a great tradition in the sport. Our basketball tradition is pretty good but will likely never be able to compete with Kansas unless we should fall into some local talent like Blake or Wayman or Alvin Adams (or Tre if he would have stayed for longer that 1 year). I would rather stay with the definitely above average performance and superior integrity of Lon then take a very risky shot at a new coach prematurely by pushing out Lon. But my knowledge of basketball is very limited so I will be happy to go with whatever Joe C. deems appropriate.
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:10 PM   #46
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I agree with skyvue and BCSooners. We are a football school that does well due in part to having a great tradition in the sport. Our basketball tradition is pretty good but will likely never be able to compete with Kansas unless we should fall into some local talent like Blake or Wayman or Alvin Adams (or Tre if he would have stayed for longer that 1 year). I would rather stay with the definitely above average performance and superior integrity of Lon then take a very risky shot at a new coach prematurely by pushing out Lon. But my knowledge of basketball is very limited so I will be happy to go with whatever Joe C. deems appropriate.
I disagree with a lot of this, but I want to focus on this. Why does it have to be "high risk" for OU to look for a new coach? There are TONS of options. We aren't elite, but save a few very specific situations, we can get most any coach that is with a program that let's say is outside the top 40 or so. Any small school coach. Pretty much any non-P5 coach.

Let's not forget, 3 of the last 4 coaches OU has hired have been pretty good. Even though I want Lon replaced, I wouldn't call him a failure. Our program and resources are better than a lot of folks give us credit for.
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:17 PM   #47
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What's going all in? Hiring a new coach every five years if the current one hasn't at least made it to the Final Four over that span?
Consistently "good" is more important at OU than making a run every now and then. OU hasn't been consistently good, there is nothing more to that. Sneaking into the NCAA Tournament (and we were on the bubble again this year) isn't consistently good at OU. Not being anywhere close in the Big 12 championship race isn't acceptable at OU either.

The other thing is the product on the floor.... It's easy to spot a good team, and it's easy to spot a bad team. OU has been right on the line way too often. Coming down to where barely making the NCAA Tournament comes down to a single game. That has happened for Lon, but that result isn't making most people happy... You guys turn around and say "hey look, we made the dance again, why aren't you thrilled?".... But when the team made it on a last-second shot in one game, or in the other seasons any ONE OR TWO games keep you out, it's too close. It's not good basketball.

Lon has had an NIT-quality team that snuck into the NCAA Tournament in 2017, in 2018, maybe in 2019 (season ended early), and of course the 2016 team won 11 games.

OU looks all but certain to be in that same situation again this year... and then Reaves, Manek, Kur, and Alondes are gone and OU is replacing lots of question marks all over again for the next year.

OU is taking on water.... You either just don't see that, or don't want to see that. You keep focusing on the "hey, we made the NCAA Tournament" argument without acknowledging that in 2017, 2018, and 2019 it's likely that one additional loss keeps OU out. Been in that "last 4 in" scenario 3 years in a row, with the year before that being the 11 win season. There is context to this.

Quote:
That we've played one of the toughest schedules year in and year out, consistently put up a good-to-very-good non-conference record
Nobody cares about that.

Quote:
He gets credit for none of that.
Yes he does.
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:22 PM   #48
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I disagree with a lot of this, but I want to focus on this. Why does it have to be "high risk" for OU to look for a new coach? There are TONS of options. We aren't elite, but save a few very specific situations, we can get most any coach that is with a program that let's say is outside the top 40 or so. Any small school coach. Pretty much any non-P5 coach.

Let's not forget, 3 of the last 4 coaches OU has hired have been pretty good. Even though I want Lon replaced, I wouldn't call him a failure. Our program and resources are better than a lot of folks give us credit for.
One of the reasons that we have had success with our recent basketball coach hires is that Joe C. is pretty good at picking a replacement when needed and knowing when an existing coach needs to go. That is why I am more than happy to defer to Joe C. about when we need a new coach.
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:40 PM   #49
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One of the reasons that we have had success with our recent basketball coach hires is that Joe C. is pretty good at picking a replacement when needed and knowing when an existing coach needs to go. That is why I am more than happy to defer to Joe C. about when we need a new coach.
I would say Joe C needs to defer to me.
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Old 05-05-2020, 04:18 PM   #50
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Consistently "good" is more important at OU than making a run every now and then. OU hasn't been consistently good, there is nothing more to that. Sneaking into the NCAA Tournament (and we were on the bubble again this year) isn't consistently good at OU. Not being anywhere close in the Big 12 championship race isn't acceptable at OU either.

The other thing is the product on the floor.... It's easy to spot a good team, and it's easy to spot a bad team. OU has been right on the line way too often. Coming down to where barely making the NCAA Tournament comes down to a single game. That has happened for Lon, but that result isn't making most people happy... You guys turn around and say "hey look, we made the dance again, why aren't you thrilled?".... But when the team made it on a last-second shot in one game, or in the other seasons any ONE OR TWO games keep you out, it's too close. It's not good basketball.

Lon has had an NIT-quality team that snuck into the NCAA Tournament in 2017, in 2018, maybe in 2019 (season ended early), and of course the 2016 team won 11 games.

OU looks all but certain to be in that same situation again this year... and then Reaves, Manek, Kur, and Alondes are gone and OU is replacing lots of question marks all over again for the next year.

OU is taking on water.... You either just don't see that, or don't want to see that. You keep focusing on the "hey, we made the NCAA Tournament" argument without acknowledging that in 2017, 2018, and 2019 it's likely that one additional loss keeps OU out. Been in that "last 4 in" scenario 3 years in a row, with the year before that being the 11 win season. There is context to this.



Nobody cares about that.



Yes he does.
Well that’s dumb. I care about that, NCAA selection cares about that.

OU wasn’t last 4 in any year.

If you make the tournament as an at large you are a top 45 team. 7/8 years OU is a top 45 team & better than over half of P5 teams 7/8 years. Name the other non Blue Blood teams that has done that?

If LK starts missing the tournament or gets the program on probation then there’s no criteria based on past OU success that should warrant his departure.
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