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Old 02-12-2018, 03:16 PM   #26
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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Yes. He creates space with his forearm virtually every time he drives with the ball. Which is a smart thing to do, because they aren't going to call it very often. Just like they aren't going to call defenders for bodying him out past the 3 point line.
Iowa State fans in my section Saturday were complaining about this the whole game.
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Old 02-12-2018, 03:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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It’s more of a reaction to the defender invading his personal space imo. If he wasn’t being body checked he would not need to push back at all.
I think he does it because he's not a great athlete and can't just get to the hole like a guy like Westbrook can. Harden does the same stuff as Trae. Trae would be well advised to add another Harden move to his game, which is headfaking behind the arc and getting guys to leap at him then jumping into the defender and getting 3 free throws.

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Old 02-12-2018, 04:04 PM   #28
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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Irrelevant stat.
How is that irrelevant? It's one of the key components 9f his game and part of what makes him so great.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:32 PM   #29
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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How is that irrelevant? It's one of the key components 9f his game and part of what makes him so great.
Because you have to compare like behavior for it to hold value. Is it possible some guards drive hard to the basket more than others (those that do are more likely to be fouled). Is it not possible for a player to be in control of the ball more than others would likely be fouled more than those who possess it less? Trae shoulders the ball more than a lot of players thus it is different. For the stat to hold weight you need other players doing the very same thing to make a fair assessment who is gaining favor by the refs and who is not.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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I think he does it because he's not a great athlete and can't just get to the hole like a guy like Westbrook can. Harden does the same stuff as Trae. Trae would be well advised to add another Harden move to his game, which is headfaking behind the arc and getting guys to leap at him then jumping into the defender and getting 3 free throws.
It is absurd to say Trae Young is not a great athlete. Don’t parrot idiots in the media.

If you lead the nation in scoring and assists you are one of the best athletes in decades. If you can make insanely deep 3 point shots and drive to the basket at will you are a great athlete. If you are a lottery pick in the NBA, you are a great athlete.

Trae Young is going to win the Naismith. Nobody has or will ever win that award that is not a great athlete.

I don’t mean to insult you but it is ridiculous how the media suggests guys that are not very good at their sport are better athletes than the best players. Rather than insulting the truly great players we should consider questioning the intelligence of the “great atletes”.
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:02 AM   #31
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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How many FT's has TY taken compared to the rest of big12 guards?
He should be taking way more. He drives all the time. He is guarded closer than any other player. I don’t remotely think it is irrelevant. But I think you need more information. A spit up three point shooter won’t get fouled often.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:36 AM   #32
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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Originally Posted by sheepdogs1 View Post
Because you have to compare like behavior for it to hold value. Is it possible some guards drive hard to the basket more than others (those that do are more likely to be fouled). Is it not possible for a player to be in control of the ball more than others would likely be fouled more than those who possess it less? Trae shoulders the ball more than a lot of players thus it is different. For the stat to hold weight you need other players doing the very same thing to make a fair assessment who is gaining favor by the refs and who is not.
I don't care about that so I probably shouldn't have even responded in this thread. It's ridiculous to posit that Trae is getting routinely hosed by the refs but I know that's what some fans want to focus on.

Whether or not a player gets to the rim often and is able to generate a lot of free throw attempts is absolutely relevant in determining how good an offensive player he is, however. So I suppose your point was that it's an irrelevant stat to this debate which I can get behind. It's hardly irrelevant, though.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:33 AM   #33
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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It is absurd to say Trae Young is not a great athlete. Don’t parrot idiots in the media.

If you lead the nation in scoring and assists you are one of the best athletes in decades. If you can make insanely deep 3 point shots and drive to the basket at will you are a great athlete. If you are a lottery pick in the NBA, you are a great athlete.

Trae Young is going to win the Naismith. Nobody has or will ever win that award that is not a great athlete.

I don’t mean to insult you but it is ridiculous how the media suggests guys that are not very good at their sport are better athletes than the best players. Rather than insulting the truly great players we should consider questioning the intelligence of the “great atletes”.

Get out of here. There is a difference between athleticism and skill. Athleticism being your running, jumping, quick twitch, etc. The stuff a guy like Jamuni McNeace possesses in spades. That's different than what a guy like Trae Young possesses in spades, which are skills (i.e. the handle and the shot), as well as intelligence and vision.

So, as I was saying, Trae is NOT a great athlete. That's not a media narrative, it's just a fact. If you want to argue semantics against commonly accepted definitions, well that's bizarre.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:25 AM   #34
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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Get out of here. There is a difference between athleticism and skill. Athleticism being your running, jumping, quick twitch, etc. The stuff a guy like Jamuni McNeace possesses in spades. That's different than what a guy like Trae Young possesses in spades, which are skills (i.e. the handle and the shot), as well as intelligence and vision.

So, as I was saying, Trae is NOT a great athlete. That's not a media narrative, it's just a fact. If you want to argue semantics against commonly accepted definitions, well that's bizarre.
Sperry, we don’t disagree often, but I think you may be wrong on this one. Trae is both an outstanding, if not great, athlete and a very skilled player. That combination is what makes him so special.

A point guard who can dribble through traffic, stop on a dime, lose a defender with a jock-dropping crossover move and finish at the rim with some incredible shots that seem to be routine for him has to be athletic. If that was not the case, everybody could do it. I’m also not sure how you can overlook the athleticism required to make shots from twenty five feet out, or make pinpoint passes the length of the floor?

Yes, skill is a big part of what TY does well. But to say he is not a great athlete is, IMHO, an oversight that also includes the things he does well on defense. I think he is a much better defender than he is given credit for. It’s true he takes a play off on defense sometimes, but he also makes plays that don’t always show up on the stat sheet.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:46 AM   #35
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

What do the people who say Trae isn't a great athlete think he is missing? He has speed and quickness. Watching him, he seems to be stronger than you would think, based on his size.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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What do the people who say Trae isn't a great athlete think he is missing? He has speed and quickness. Watching him, he seems to be stronger than you would think, based on his size.
It's really not that tough to understand -- when scouts and analysts make that comment, they are talking about athleticism from an NBA standpoint. Compare him to Westbrook, Wall, Fox, Rose (pre-injury). We haven't even see Trae dunk in a game, and obviously that matters when you are trying to assess whether a point guard will be able to finish at the rim in NBA games. And while he may be stronger than he looks, I don't think strength could reasonably be considered an attribute right now.

I love Trae and think he will be a great pro and think he should (and will) be picked early in the lottery. He has tons of skill and, like you say, his speed and quickness are impressive. But think of the difference between Steph Curry and Westbrook, and that is the answer to your question. Both among the best players in the NBA, but go about it in totally different ways.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:25 AM   #37
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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I don't care about that so I probably shouldn't have even responded in this thread. It's ridiculous to posit that Trae is getting routinely hosed by the refs but I know that's what some fans want to focus on.

Whether or not a player gets to the rim often and is able to generate a lot of free throw attempts is absolutely relevant in determining how good an offensive player he is, however. So I suppose your point was that it's an irrelevant stat to this debate which I can get behind. It's hardly irrelevant, though.
The stat, that he shoots more free throws than anyone else is relevant in itself, but it was used to imply that because he shoots more free throws than anyone else then it obviously means that the officiating crew is not missing any calls against Trae. I responded by saying such is irrelevant and there's more to it then who shoots the most free throws when it comes to determining if Trae is being given a fair shake by the refereeing crew. Oh boy. I would say the same thing for other players as well, for the determining factor of whether a player is being hosed does not purely rest on the laurels of who shoots the most free throws (that is not the end all). There is actually more to it and that was the point and the only point being made.

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Old 02-13-2018, 10:27 AM   #38
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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What do the people who say Trae isn't a great athlete think he is missing? He has speed and quickness. Watching him, he seems to be stronger than you would think, based on his size.
Agreed. It's absurd. He's not a freak athlete maybe like Westbrook, but still has tremendous speed and quickness.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:41 AM   #39
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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Sperry, we don’t disagree often, but I think you may be wrong on this one. Trae is both an outstanding, if not great, athlete and a very skilled player. That combination is what makes him so special.

A point guard who can dribble through traffic, stop on a dime, lose a defender with a jock-dropping crossover move and finish at the rim with some incredible shots that seem to be routine for him has to be athletic. If that was not the case, everybody could do it. I’m also not sure how you can overlook the athleticism required to make shots from twenty five feet out, or make pinpoint passes the length of the floor?

Yes, skill is a big part of what TY does well. But to say he is not a great athlete is, IMHO, an oversight that also includes the things he does well on defense. I think he is a much better defender than he is given credit for. It’s true he takes a play off on defense sometimes, but he also makes plays that don’t always show up on the stat sheet.

That is skill. It's different from athleticism. Skill is more important than athleticism, especially in the college game. That's the reason that Jamuni, despite being far and away the best athlete on the team (and maybe the best athlete in the conference), is not even close to being the best player on the team.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:56 AM   #40
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.

Edited my post:

Meant to say we don’t “disagree” often. It’s true, we usually agree on nearly everything. Guess this is one time we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I get the emphasis on skill with Trae. I just don’t see how you can discount the athleticism he shows in the execution of his unique skills?
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:19 PM   #41
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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That is skill. It's different from athleticism. Skill is more important than athleticism, especially in the college game. That's the reason that Jamuni, despite being far and away the best athlete on the team (and maybe the best athlete in the conference), is not even close to being the best player on the team.
You haven't explained what keeps Trae from being a good athlete. Please be specific.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:20 PM   #42
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

When people speak of "athleticism," it seems to be all about measurables. Some observers have actually said Trae's not that fast, but anyone who's watched him play knows he's plenty fast when and where it counts.

Me, I find the focus on measurables more than a little overdone. Because you can't measure heart or court savvy or courage or any of a dozen other intangibles.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:25 PM   #43
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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Get out of here. There is a difference between athleticism and skill. Athleticism being your running, jumping, quick twitch, etc. The stuff a guy like Jamuni McNeace possesses in spades. That's different than what a guy like Trae Young possesses in spades, which are skills (i.e. the handle and the shot), as well as intelligence and vision.

So, as I was saying, Trae is NOT a great athlete. That's not a media narrative, it's just a fact. If you want to argue semantics against commonly accepted definitions, well that's bizarre.
How idiotic. You have got to be one of the most argumentative posters out there. To insinuate TY is not quick twitch is one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever read.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:36 PM   #44
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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You haven't explained what keeps Trae from being a good athlete. Please be specific.
He lacks elite speed, explosiveness, leaping ability. This means he's not going to be able to just use his physical gifts to get baskets inside

He makes up for that by being extremely quick, having a fantastic handle, incredible range, fantastic vision.

But he can get bullied by more athletic players. That's what happened when he faced Sexton from Alabama.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:49 PM   #45
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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He lacks elite speed, explosiveness, leaping ability. This means he's not going to be able to just use his physical gifts to get baskets inside

He makes up for that by being extremely quick, having a fantastic handle, incredible range, fantastic vision.

But he can get bullied by more athletic players. That's what happened when he faced Sexton from Alabama.
So speed is an athletic attribute but quickness isn't?

If he gets bullied, it's likely because the other player is stronger, not more athletic. As he matures, he will gain strength.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:02 PM   #46
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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He lacks elite speed, explosiveness, leaping ability. This means he's not going to be able to just use his physical gifts to get baskets inside

He makes up for that by being extremely quick, having a fantastic handle, incredible range, fantastic vision.

But he can get bullied by more athletic players. That's what happened when he faced Sexton from Alabama.
Wrong. What happened against Alabama is that Herbert Jones' length and their double-teams bothered him.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:10 PM   #47
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https://www.hoopsthink.com/athleticism-potential/

For anyone interested in how scouts think about athleticism, feel free to click the link. Or, just keep insulting each other . . . whichever you prefer!
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:21 PM   #48
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Default Re: Question for the board: Are refs allowing TY now to get fouled.....

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https://www.hoopsthink.com/athleticism-potential/

For anyone interested in how scouts think about athleticism, feel free to click the link. Or, just keep insulting each other . . . whichever you prefer!
Good stuff, Wichita! You settled the debate for me.
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