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Old 04-08-2019, 09:23 AM   #26
Zimwillett
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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I'd rather have a title than a history id coming up short.
To me, that raises an interesting question: Since 1994, would you rather be Arkansas or OU?

Arkansas had their incredible run from 1994 to 1995. They won it in '94 and went to the title game in '95. However, Arkansas hasn't made it past the second round since 1996. In the 20 years since 2000, they've only made the tournament 8 times---including two extended stretches where they didn't even go to the NIT.

In other words, would you rather have a glorious run that includes a title in exchange for a quarter century of misery where you only make the tournament 40% of the time and never get past the second weekend or make the tournament 75% including two Final Four runs, two Elite Eights, and two Sweet 16s?

I'm sincerely torn.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:23 AM   #27
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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That is much closer than I expected, but I'm guessing a large part of their success was before I was born. I glanced at their results in my lifetime, and wasn't overly impressed. A LOT of NIT bids.

Maybe they weren't the best example, but my point still stands. I'm not willing to be a mediocre program over a significant stretch of time just to get a single NC.
NC State since 1996: 450 wins
OU since 1996: 512 wins

Quite a few more wins.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:25 AM   #28
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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To me, that raises an interesting question: Since 1994, would you rather be Arkansas or OU?

Arkansas had their incredible run from 1994 to 1995. They won it in '94 and went to the title game in '95. However, Arkansas hasn't made it past the second round since 1996. In the 20 years since 2000, they've only made the tournament 8 times---including two extended stretches where they didn't even go to the NIT.

In other words, would you rather have a glorious run that includes a title in exchange for a quarter century of misery where you only make the tournament 40% of the time and never get past the second weekend or make the tournament 75% including two Final Four runs, two Elite Eights, and two Sweet 16s?

I'm sincerely torn.
Football analogy time...

Would OU football trade in the 2000 championship team for 3-4 more BCS Bowl or CFP appearances but not victories? That was 19 years ago now... Would Stoops trade in his 2000 championship for 18 playoff berths but no championships?

I have a feeling Bob would say no... that he would want his title, even if he was GREAT 18 other times.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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Football analogy time...

Would OU football trade in the 2000 championship team for 3-4 more BCS Bowl or CFP appearances but not victories? That was 19 years ago now... Would Stoops trade in his 2000 championship for 18 playoff berths but no championships?

I have a feeling Bob would say no... that he would want his title, even if he was GREAT 18 other times.
I think that is a bad example b/c OU football already had great success. Those 3/4 more BCS births don't really change much, perception-wise, b/c OU went to so many of them as it is. I think that is where the difference lies.

If OU basketball was consistently a Final Four or Elite 8 type team that just kept coming up short of a title, I'd be more inclined to trade some of that success for a NC. But as is, we'd be "taking" from a good (not great) resume to get that single NC. I'm just not sure I'm willing to do that.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:32 AM   #30
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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Football analogy time...

Would OU football trade in the 2000 championship team for 3-4 more BCS Bowl or CFP appearances but not victories? That was 19 years ago now... Would Stoops trade in his 2000 championship for 18 playoff berths but no championships?

I have a feeling Bob would say no... that he would want his title, even if he was GREAT 18 other times.
I'd posed the question quite a bit differently. Would Bob Stoops trade one title in 2000 to be followed by 60% of his remaining seasons not making a bowl, and the bowl games he does make are low to middling?

I don't know?
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:34 AM   #31
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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I'd posed the question quite a bit differently. Would Bob Stoops trade one title in 2000 to be followed by 60% of his remaining seasons not making a bowl, and the bowl games he does make are low to middling?

I don't know?
Yea that is a better question, and more applicable to Texas Tech for sure... Great question.

I honestly don't know. I can make a case for both.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:35 AM   #32
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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In other words, would you rather have a glorious run that includes a title in exchange for a quarter century of misery where you only make the tournament 40% of the time and never get past the second weekend or make the tournament 75% including two Final Four runs, two Elite Eights, and two Sweet 16s?

I'm sincerely torn.
The thing that makes that tough to answer is that we don't know what they are going to look like going forward. That 25 years of misery is a lot more palatable if afterwards they have increased success. But if that 25 years turns into 35, then 50, well.....yuck!

I just don't want OU basketball to spend half of my adult life (roughly 25 years) being a poor program. NC or not. I'd rather have as many seasons that kept my interest as possible. I love OU basketball, but if they were a lock to not make the Dance already by December, my interest in following them the rest of the season is significantly decreased.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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The thing that makes that tough to answer is that we don't know what they are going to look like going forward. That 25 years of misery is a lot more palatable if afterwards they have increased success. But if that 25 years turns into 35, then 50, well.....yuck!

I just don't want OU basketball to spend half of my adult life (roughly 25 years) being a poor program. NC or not. I'd rather have as many seasons that kept my interest as possible. I love OU basketball, but if they were a lock to not make the Dance already by December, my interest in following them the rest of the season is significantly decreased.
In that case it is more like Arkansas. They won a title in 94, competed for one in 95, and have just been kinda ho hum ever since. It didn't turn them into some kind of annual contender. Far from it.

But, maybe that isn't even possible. Only a few programs compete regularly for the main prize.

If OU won a championship, for example, it would probably elevate OU into something better because OU is ALREADY a consistent winner... Whereas Tech has never been a consistent winner, so it could be lightning in a bottle for them.
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:23 AM   #34
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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In that case it is more like Arkansas. They won a title in 94, competed for one in 95, and have just been kinda ho hum ever since. It didn't turn them into some kind of annual contender. Far from it.

But, maybe that isn't even possible. Only a few programs compete regularly for the main prize.

If OU won a championship, for example, it would probably elevate OU into something better because OU is ALREADY a consistent winner... Whereas Tech has never been a consistent winner, so it could be lightning in a bottle for them.
Good observation, and I think a big reason why the sport is fun. Lots of teams can have little flare ups (UNLV, Butler, etc.) I think that's owing to a couple of things. First, one coach or one or two players can really make a massive difference. Second, it's the single elimination nature of the tournament. But all but the bluest of the blue bloods can really sustain it.

Honestly, I think if I'm a fan of a program that I know isn't likely to crack into that "Duke/Kentucky/UNC" stratosphere, I think I'd rather have the team that consistently makes the tournament a huge percentage and has a deep run every 5 or 6 years than the "they've sucked most of my adult life, but I still dine out on 1994" type of program. But it's an extremely tough call.
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Old 04-08-2019, 11:31 AM   #35
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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To me, that raises an interesting question: Since 1994, would you rather be Arkansas or OU?

Arkansas had their incredible run from 1994 to 1995. They won it in '94 and went to the title game in '95. However, Arkansas hasn't made it past the second round since 1996. In the 20 years since 2000, they've only made the tournament 8 times---including two extended stretches where they didn't even go to the NIT.

In other words, would you rather have a glorious run that includes a title in exchange for a quarter century of misery where you only make the tournament 40% of the time and never get past the second weekend or make the tournament 75% including two Final Four runs, two Elite Eights, and two Sweet 16s?

I'm sincerely torn.
Possibly. I see your point. However, I will counter with this: perception is reality. There is a perception that goes with the banner in the gym regarding a natty. It is seen as much easier to sell hope when you have done it before. Where as if you haven't, it can be seen as trying to sell a fools hope. OU is not quite in that realm, but people see the banner in the rafters, and it creates a different perception.
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Old 04-08-2019, 11:53 AM   #36
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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Possibly. I see your point. However, I will counter with this: perception is reality. There is a perception that goes with the banner in the gym regarding a natty. It is seen as much easier to sell hope when you have done it before. Where as if you haven't, it can be seen as trying to sell a fools hope. OU is not quite in that realm, but people see the banner in the rafters, and it creates a different perception.
Fair. I assume you're basically talking about recruiting---selling recruits on banners in the rafters. But in the case of Arkansas, you're talking about selling kids on a banner that was hung 6, 7, 8 years before they were born. Is that really a selling point to an 18 year old? Some, maybe. But my guess is most of the recruits who can change the direction of your program don't care one bit about what some guys they've never heard of did back in '94/'95.

Plus, I'm coming at it more from a fan's perspective. Would I have traded a win in the '88 title game for OU to basically suck for the next 30 years of my life? If you'd have asked the 9 year old me on that night, the answer probably would have been "yes." Now, I'm not so sure. It's a tough call. But I think if you make me choose today, I'd keep the Hollis/Blake/Buddy years interspersed with consistently making the tournament. Part of that is colored by how much I hated the post-Blake years under Capel or the post-Buddy season under Lon.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:16 PM   #37
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

Blah blah blah.


OU needs to win a national title in basketball. That should be the goal. Just making the tourney shouldn’t be the goal.

We need a new arena or a major upgrade to the dilapidated LNC. The admin needs to find solutions to the basketball program. The fans need to show up every game and support the program.

I don’t want to be Arkansas or tech. I want to be OU with a national title.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:39 PM   #38
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Blah blah blah.


OU needs to win a national title in basketball. That should be the goal. Just making the tourney shouldn’t be the goal.

We need a new arena or a major upgrade to the dilapidated LNC. The admin needs to find solutions to the basketball program. The fans need to show up every game and support the program.

I don’t want to be Arkansas or tech. I want to be OU with a national title.
I knew something like this response was on its way. Let me be clear. I want OU to go on a run of national titles that would make John Wooden's corpse blush. I want OU to have the most beautiful arena filled to the rafters every night with fans that make Cameron Crazies seem like patrons at the Masters.

In the interim, I'm happy enough to bide my time engaging in interesting conversations like this one. Thanks.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:51 PM   #39
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

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I'd rather have a title than a history id coming up short.
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Old 04-08-2019, 01:00 PM   #40
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Default Re: How "program elevating" is a National Championship?

Waylon Tisdale, Mookie Blaylock, Stacey King, Blake Griffin, Buddy Hield, Trae Young

Or
Andre Emmett
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Old 04-09-2019, 09:51 AM   #41
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Not elevated.
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