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Old 11-24-2015, 09:42 AM   #1
thebigabd
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Default Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34913173

Will be interesting to see how the Russians respond... Looks like BS on the part of Turkey to me. They know the Russians are attacking ISIS and rebel targets in Syria, and pose no threat to Turkey. We also know that ISIS is making $50 million per month by smuggling Iraqi and Syrian oil through Turkey.

Turkey is also attacking the Kurds, which are fighting ISIS.

Turkey is doing more to stop the killing of ISIS than they are helping.
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

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Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34913173

Will be interesting to see how the Russians respond... Looks like BS on the part of Turkey to me. They know the Russians are attacking ISIS and rebel targets in Syria, and pose no threat to Turkey. We also know that ISIS is making $50 million per month by smuggling Iraqi and Syrian oil through Turkey.

Turkey is also attacking the Kurds, which are fighting ISIS.

Turkey is doing more to stop the killing of ISIS than they are helping.
It's almost as if Turkey is on the same side as ISIS.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

I think they hate the current government in Syria more than they support ISIS.

This is a dangerous situation. Pursuant to NATO we have obligations to assist in the defense of Turkey. I can virtually guaranty if Russia were to respond with force, many members of NATO wouldn't do anything. Where does that leave us? Do we get involved, do we do nothing?

Turkey apparently gave lots of warnings but at the same time it seems like they fired after the plane left Turkish airspace and that the intrusion was pretty minor. If the story and map are accurate that lithe jut into Syria is about a quarter to half a kilometer. If it is only 1/4 of kilometer in width, that plane passed over about 800 feet of Turkey. Do you really shoot down a plane over such a small mistake especially when the flight path is clearly back into Syria? Furthermore, if you are the pilot of the plane, do you make an abrupt and possibly potentially dangerous turn out of the air space when you will fly though it in a second or two? I don't think an immediate left turn gets you out of Turkish airspace any sooner than staying on course.

I wonder if the Turkish pilot had authorization to shoot?
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

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Originally Posted by DenverSooner View Post
I think they hate the current government in Syria more than they support ISIS.

This is a dangerous situation. Pursuant to NATO we have obligations to assist in the defense of Turkey. I can virtually guaranty if Russia were to respond with force, many members of NATO wouldn't do anything. Where does that leave us? Do we get involved, do we do nothing?

Turkey apparently gave lots of warnings but at the same time it seems like they fired after the plane left Turkish airspace and that the intrusion was pretty minor. If the story and map are accurate that lithe jut into Syria is about a quarter to half a kilometer. If it is only 1/4 of kilometer in width, that plane passed over about 800 feet of Turkey. Do you really shoot down a plane over such a small mistake especially when the flight path is clearly back into Syria? Furthermore, if you are the pilot of the plane, do you make an abrupt and possibly potentially dangerous turn out of the air space when you will fly though it in a second or two? I don't think an immediate left turn gets you out of Turkish airspace any sooner than staying on course.

I wonder if the Turkish pilot had authorization to shoot?
and i also read that they shot down the pilots that ejected.

The more I read, the more pro russia i am in this mess. And what are the chances that the weapons used to shoot down the jet were provided to the rebels/turkey from the us?
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

I have only read one article but I interpreted it as people inside Syria shot at the pilots.

I went to map quest and looked at the peninsula where this happened. I think it is more like one kilometer in width. But that is still very minor. A kilometer is a little more than 3000 feet. I don't know how fast that jet was flying but I would assume it wold fly a kilometer in a matter of seconds.

I am just not sure how Turkey could have given several warnings. Doesn't it take a second to say you have entered our air space, turn around immediately? Now to do it several times would seem to absolutely take several seconds.

Perhaps they were warning it before it entered their air space but to me this looks like they were a bit trigger happy.
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

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Originally Posted by SoonerBounce13 View Post
and i also read that they shot down the pilots that ejected.

The more I read, the more pro russia i am in this mess. And what are the chances that the weapons used to shoot down the jet were provided to the rebels/turkey from the us?
I've been on the pro-Russian side of this most of the time....
  • Russia is the only country there legally.
  • Whether we like it or not, Assad is the legitimate government of Syria and has been for a very long time.
  • These rebel factions cannot run the country, just like Iraqi, Afghani, and Libyan rebel groups can't run those countries. The Assad government are the only people in Syria who know how to run a country.

On top of all that, even the "moderate" rebel groups have joined forces in some cases with Al-Nusra, Al-Qaeda, and in some cases ISIS.

Russia's strategy makes the most sense too..... Kill ISIS, kill terrorists, work as air support for the Syrian Army (who provides the ground force against ISIS and terrorists), and then once that is over work out a political settlement between Assad and rebels.

I am still very surprised that Turkey did this.... why provoke Russia? Russia is a military super-power, with thousands of jets, tanks, cruise missiles, and nuclear capability.

Turkey's entire Air Force consists of about 200 jets...
  • Russia has more than 300 Mig-29's, which are comparable to the F-16 Turkey uses.
  • Russia has 135 Mig-31's, which are probably better than those F-16's
  • They have over 300 SU-27's, which are better than those F-16's
  • They have several hundred other air-craft as well.

Why pick a fight with someone who outclasses you across the board? They must know or be very confident that Russia won't respond, or that they can invoke Article 5 and be protected by NATO.
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Old 11-25-2015, 12:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

I really question your though process on the current government being legal. It seems to me you have forgotten what the Declaration of Independence says and Natural Law. A tyrant is not a legal government regardless of how the tyrant came to power or how long he has been in power.


Regardless, I feel that Turkey is wrong in this situation. I really question how Turkey gave ten warning (which I read today) when it would only take seconds to fly over that peninsula. I further question whether it would even be logical to turn the plane when you would leave the airspace just as fast staying on course.

It seems to me Turkey was just itching to shoot down a plane and used this as an excuse.
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Old 11-27-2015, 11:25 AM   #8
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

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I really question your though process on the current government being legal. It seems to me you have forgotten what the Declaration of Independence says and Natural Law.
The Declaration of Independence doesn't apply to governments outside of our own. That document, along with the constitution, etc define the legitimate government of the United States.

Nations have been led by tyrants for thousands of years. There are still lots of countries today ruled by one party systems, monarchies, or otherwise are dictatorships. That doesnt mean they aren't "the government" for that country.

The Assad government has been in place since 1970, and its Ba'ath party has been in place since 1945. That has been the recognized governmental institution for that country the entire time. It is the LEGITIMATE government. I didn't say it was a democracy, I said it was the legitimate government, and has been for a long time.


Quote:
Regardless, I feel that Turkey is wrong in this situation. I really question how Turkey gave ten warning (which I read today) when it would only take seconds to fly over that peninsula. I further question whether it would even be logical to turn the plane when you would leave the airspace just as fast staying on course.

It seems to me Turkey was just itching to shoot down a plane and used this as an excuse.
The more this pans out the more it looks like a planned event. They had the flight plans from the US, and knew exactly when and where that jet was going to be. They had a 17 second window and they used it.

Unclear as to what their motives were... They are going to pay a price for that, and it didnt accomplish any strategic objective. All it did was cost them an ally, damage their economy, and put their own people at risk.
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Old 11-28-2015, 03:31 PM   #9
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

Russia has applied sanctions on Turkey that will cost it billions of dollars (1 SU-24 is worth $24 million).... They have also moved in a bunch of new gear to shoot down Turkish jets who get near their planes.

Looking like a dumber move by the day for Turkey.
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Old 12-02-2015, 01:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian SU-24

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The Declaration of Independence doesn't apply to governments outside of our own. That document, along with the constitution, etc define the legitimate government of the United States.
The Declaration of Independence sets forth our grievances with the King of England, our fundamental beliefs about natural law and why we were justified in severing ties with the King of England. It does not define our government or form our government.

I would assume all Americans support the ideas set forth in the Declaration of Independence. One of those ideas is that a tyrant does not have legal authority.

This is the beginning of the Declaration of Independence:


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.




So our most fundamental belief is that when a government become tyrannical it is no longer valid and the people have a right to remove that government or sever ties with that government. I referenced this because the existing Syrian government is tyrannical. It is therefore not legitimate. The people are in the process of over throwing it. They have internally declared it to no longer be the valid government.

For an American to say that government is legitimate just seems wrong to me. We of all people, should support at least with words, those that would rise up against tyranny for themselves and their future generations.

Apparently, you disagree and support the tyrant but my hope is you will actually rethink your position and conclude that the sitting government is not legitimate.
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