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Old 02-20-2019, 03:37 PM   #51
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Default Re: Is Kelvin a realistic option?

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It's certainly not ridiculous, considering he's coaching a top 10 team despite having far less to work with than what we have here in Norman.
It certainly is ironic, though. As it was on the football boards when many who demanded that Mike Stoops be brought back to Norman were soon screaming for him to be fired, but somehow nary a one of them (that I ever saw) acknowledged how wrong they'd been in the first place. Fans are eager to claim credit for having been "right" in their critiques of a program (we've seen evidence of that here of late), but they rarely acknowledge all the times they were wrong.

I spent too much time and energy defending Coach Sampson back in the day not to snicker when I see him consistently praised to the skies now.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:54 PM   #52
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Default Re: Is Kelvin a realistic option?

By the way.... Jeff Capel and the Pitt Panthers are 12-14.
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Old 02-20-2019, 04:11 PM   #53
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By the way.... Jeff Capel and the Pitt Panthers are 12-14.
Since they were 0-18 last year in conference play, my guess is there is a talent deficiency there. If heís 12-14 next year at this time, that would be a problem for Pitt.

Back to Kelvin, while I never wanted to lose him, it was just time for him to move on. At the time he left, he pointed out what Billy Tubbs had once told him - that while OU is great job for about 10 years, but difficult to maintain that level of success much longer. Iím paraphrasing, but that was the gist.

Iím about moving forward. I hope that when the job becomes available, Joe C will cough up the necessary money to get his first choice.

One last tidbit related to Coach Sampson and Coach Tubbs. 90% of those reading this will already know this, but Iíll say it anyway. At the time Kelvin left, OU had the longest consecutive postseason streak in all of D-1 menís basketball- 25 straight years. Itís something to be proud of for sure.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:27 PM   #54
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Default Re: Is Kelvin a realistic option?

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It certainly is ironic, though. As it was on the football boards when many who demanded that Mike Stoops be brought back to Norman were soon screaming for him to be fired, but somehow nary a one of them (that I ever saw) acknowledged how wrong they'd been in the first place. Fans are eager to claim credit for having been "right" in their critiques of a program (we've seen evidence of that here of late), but they rarely acknowledge all the times they were wrong.

I spent too much time and energy defending Coach Sampson back in the day not to snicker when I see him consistently praised to the skies now.
There's a difference between Mike returning to the program and Kelvin not returning because you cannot accurately predict who will accept the error of their ways versus those who will not when involving a hypothetical. Kelvin's resume, as it relates to how his teams performed on the court, was not the focal point of criticism, but more of how he ignored the rules imposed on head coaches by the NCAA. Meanwhile, Mike was graded on his performance on the field. Just my two Centavos.

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Old 02-20-2019, 07:17 PM   #55
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Default Re: Is Kelvin a realistic option?

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One last tidbit related to Coach Sampson and Coach Tubbs. 90% of those reading this will already know this, but Iíll say it anyway. At the time Kelvin left, OU had the longest consecutive postseason streak in all of D-1 menís basketball- 25 straight years. Itís something to be proud of for sure.
If I'm not mistaken, Kelvin also had an impressive home winning streak (maybe OOC games only) for a while.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:19 PM   #56
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Default Re: Is Kelvin a realistic option?

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It's certainly not ridiculous, considering he's coaching a top 10 team despite having far less to work with than what we have here in Norman.
Top 10 team. LOL. Rankings are semantics. Houston is not top 10. That will be proven soon enough

Kelvin is a good coach but this board reeks of revisionist history. In a P5 conference, heís worth 20 wins and a tourney bid, no more.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:36 PM   #57
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In a P5 conference, heís worth 20 wins and a tourney bid, no more.
Sign me up for that every year at a non blue-blood program. Then take your chances in the dance. There's something to be said for consistency and being consistently relevant.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:57 PM   #58
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Top 10 team. LOL. Rankings are semantics. Houston is not top 10. That will be proven soon enough

Kelvin is a good coach but this board reeks of revisionist history. In a P5 conference, heís worth 20 wins and a tourney bid, no more.
Kelvin was a great coach. He had ou bordering on elite during his tenure. He left for a better job and that sucked but I also donít want him back. He has a good thing going and Joe C will make a great hire when Lon retires. Both parties will be just fine.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:57 PM   #59
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Sign me up for that every year at a non blue-blood program. Then take your chances in the dance. There's something to be said for consistency and being consistently relevant.
Is 5 of 6 years good enough?
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:07 PM   #60
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Top 10 team. LOL. Rankings are semantics. Houston is not top 10. That will be proven soon enough
They are top 10 according to the AP and Coaches poll. They were clearly a top 25 team last year, and it took a historically good shot from the eventual runner-ups to keep them from making a very deep run. This year they're 25-1 (and closer to 26-0 than 25-2) with nonconference wins against BYU, Oregon, OKST, and LSU. The American Conference isn't overly impressive, but it's not a conference that OU would likely win. You don't get to 25-1 without being a darn good ballclub. Perhaps they're only top 15.

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Kelvin is a good coach but this board reeks of revisionist history. In a P5 conference, heís worth 20 wins and a tourney bid, no more.
Actually, it's revisionist history on your part, as he had a 31 win Final Four season, and had 25+ wins in 5 of his last 7 years here. That's a far cry from your silly "20 wins...no more" talk. As great of a coach as I felt he was when we had him, I firmly believe he's a better coach now thanks to his time in the NBA.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:08 PM   #61
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Default Re: Is Kelvin a realistic option?

Kelvin could win 20 games with two Samoans, three Cossacks and a Benedictine monk.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:10 PM   #62
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Kelvin was a great coach. He had ou bordering on elite during his tenure. He left for a better job and that sucked but I also don’t want him back. He has a good thing going and Joe C will make a great hire when Lon retires. Both parties will be just fine.
I think there are a lot of reasons to do this for both sides. Kelvin is one of the most underpaid HCs in the country, and we could easily afford to double his salary. Furthermore, Kellen has been an assistant coach for over a decade and it's time to see what he's capable of; I know Kelvin has been talking him up. There's no chance OU would offer Kellen a spot, but I bet Houston would.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:52 PM   #63
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Is 5 of 6 years good enough?
If OU either A: misses the tourney or B: fails to reach 20 wins this season (likely) then Kruger will have only accomplished the feat (20 + tourney) 4 out of his 8 years here (all with Buddy Hield incidentally). But more concerning, it will be 3 seasons in a row failing to reach 20 wins, and winning fewer Big 12 games than ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE CONFERENCE over that span.

Kelvin on the other hand managed 20+ wins AND an NCAA bid 9 out of 12 (11 of 12 NCAA tourney bids total), including FIVE 25+ win seasons, with no lottery picks on his roster mind you. Kruger has had exactly ONE season of 25+ wins and is in serious danger of missing the tourney 2 of the last 3.

So to answer your question, no Kruger's results aren't good enough. He has a LOSING Big 12 record over his tenure here ffs.

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Old 02-21-2019, 05:29 AM   #64
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Kelvin could win 20 games with two Samoans, three Cossacks and a Benedictine monk.
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:36 AM   #65
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Default Re: Is Kelvin a realistic option?

He also won the big 12 tournament 4-5 times.

Lon Kruger, in his entire coaching career, has won a conference or conference tournament twice. In the entire career.

OU seriously downgraded with Kruger and Capel, and the results speak for themselves.
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:43 AM   #66
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If OU either A: misses the tourney or B: fails to reach 20 wins this season (likely) then Kruger will have only accomplished the feat (20 + tourney) 4 out of his 8 years here (all with Buddy Hield incidentally). But more concerning, it will be 3 seasons in a row failing to reach 20 wins, and winning fewer Big 12 games than ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE CONFERENCE over that span.

Kelvin on the other hand managed 20+ wins AND an NCAA bid 9 out of 12 (11 of 12 NCAA tourney bids total), including FIVE 25+ win seasons, with no lottery picks on his roster mind you. Kruger has had exactly ONE season of 25+ wins and is in serious danger of missing the tourney 2 of the last 3.

So to answer your question, no Kruger's results aren't good enough. He has a LOSING Big 12 record over his tenure here ffs.
You actually didn't answer my question. You went on and on about what your opinion would be IF we miss the tournament.

Also, can everyone please stop with the false suggestion that Lon owes four years of success to Buddy? Disclaimer: Buddy is my favorite Sooner of all time. But let's be real. His first two years, he wasn't a guy who carried the team to the postseason or 20 wins. It would basically be like claiming that Lon owes last year's tournament berth to Manek. Also, Lon has coached for 35+ years. He has been successful everywhere. To act like he hasn't shown he can win without one specific player is as silly as it is wrong. We aren't talking about Capel here.
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:51 AM   #67
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Actually, it's revisionist history on your part, as he had a 31 win Final Four season, and had 25+ wins in 5 of his last 7 years here. That's a far cry from your silly "20 wins...no more" talk. As great of a coach as I felt he was when we had him, I firmly believe he's a better coach now thanks to his time in the NBA.
Yep!
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:54 AM   #68
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OU seriously downgraded with Kruger and Capel, and the results speak for themselves.
Compared to Billy and Kelvin I'm going to have to agree.
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Old 02-21-2019, 10:59 AM   #69
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You actually didn't answer my question. You went on and on about what your opinion would be IF we miss the tournament.

Also, can everyone please stop with the false suggestion that Lon owes four years of success to Buddy? Disclaimer: Buddy is my favorite Sooner of all time. But let's be real. His first two years, he wasn't a guy who carried the team to the postseason or 20 wins. It would basically be like claiming that Lon owes last year's tournament berth to Manek. Also, Lon has coached for 35+ years. He has been successful everywhere. To act like he hasn't shown he can win without one specific player is as silly as it is wrong. We aren't talking about Capel here.
I love it when you rag on capel while defending Lon even though they have similar win % at OU.

You also never address the facts I post. Lon has a losing record in big 12 play in 7+ years at OU. 69-70. Lon has the worst record in the big 12 in league play the last 3 years combined. He has won 25 games in a season 1 time in 8 years, when he had the national POY.

These are facts. Lon is a mediocre coach at best (opinion) as his lifetime ~60% win percent reflects.

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Old 02-21-2019, 11:18 AM   #70
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I love it when you rag on capel while defending Lon even though they have similar win % at OU.

You also never address the facts I post. Lon has a losing record in big 12 play in 7+ years at OU. 69-70. Lon has the worst record in the big 12 in league play 3 years combined. He has won 25 games in a season 1 time in 8 years, when he had the national POY.

These are facts. Lon is a mediocre coach at best (opinion) as his lifetime ~60% win percent reflects.
Lon has won 61% of his games at OU. Capel won 58%. That's not an insignificant difference. And it grows larger if you don't count the 13 wins that Capel had vacated. I assume Lon might have been able to add a few Ws to his ledger if he cheated. As for your 25-win stat, that just shows how arbitrary cutoff points can be used to manipulate things. He also has a 23-win season, a 24-win season, and a 20-win season. Most college basketball people point to 20 wins as the benchmark of a good team when you are talking about teams playing in a Power 5 league, but you have chosen another number to suit your narrative. In any event, Capel had two seasons with more than 16 wins, and he did it against a significantly worse SOS than Kruger has played at OU. So if you want to talk facts, I'm all for it.

Bigger question to me is, why does it seem like so many people want to discuss the Lon/Kelvin thing as if OU chose one over the other? It's not like OU fired Kelvin and then hired Lon. Kelvin left on his own for a better job, and Kruger arrived at OU five years later to try to resurrect a program that was coming off two awful seasons and that was in hot water with the NCAA. Hot take -- Billy, Kelvin, and Lon are all good basketball coaches that 95% of programs in America would be lucky to have.
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:52 AM   #71
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I love the selective memory of the posters on this board.

He was a repeat Cheater who was Banned from coaching by the NCAA for a time period.

I had several interactions with him off the court at events and he was a complete Jerk!
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Old 02-21-2019, 12:33 PM   #72
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The difference between Lon being at 61% and being at 58% is less than 1 win per season. That is not significant.
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Old 02-21-2019, 12:40 PM   #73
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I love the selective memory of the posters on this board.

He was a repeat Cheater who was Banned from coaching by the NCAA for a time period.

I had several interactions with him off the court at events and he was a complete Jerk!
He was a repeat offender after he left OU. What he did at ou was against the rules even though it was insignificant enough that a few years later it wasnít against the rukes
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:31 PM   #74
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Lon has won 61% of his games at OU. Capel won 58%. That's not an insignificant difference. And it grows larger if you don't count the 13 wins that Capel had vacated. I assume Lon might have been able to add a few Ws to his ledger if he cheated. As for your 25-win stat, that just shows how arbitrary cutoff points can be used to manipulate things. He also has a 23-win season, a 24-win season, and a 20-win season. Most college basketball people point to 20 wins as the benchmark of a good team when you are talking about teams playing in a Power 5 league, but you have chosen another number to suit your narrative. In any event, Capel had two seasons with more than 16 wins, and he did it against a significantly worse SOS than Kruger has played at OU. So if you want to talk facts, I'm all for it.

Bigger question to me is, why does it seem like so many people want to discuss the Lon/Kelvin thing as if OU chose one over the other? It's not like OU fired Kelvin and then hired Lon. Kelvin left on his own for a better job, and Kruger arrived at OU five years later to try to resurrect a program that was coming off two awful seasons and that was in hot water with the NCAA. Hot take -- Billy, Kelvin, and Lon are all good basketball coaches that 95% of programs in America would be lucky to have.
You're right about the arbitrary 25 win benchmark. I withdraw my remarks about it.

So let's just talk win % and march success

Sampson: 72%/68% (12 years, 11 ncaa bids)
- 1 FF, 1 E8, 1 S16
- 1 conference title, 3 conference tourney titles

Capel: 55%/43% (5 years, 2 ncaa bids)
- 1 E8

Kruger: 61%/50% (7+ years, 5 ncaa bids)
- 1 FF, 1 S16

There seems to be a clear hierarchy. I dont expect Kruger to be Sampson but I expect him to win more big 12 games than he loses and not finish near or at the bottom of the league 3 straight seasons.
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:46 PM   #75
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Lon has won 61% of his games at OU. Capel won 58%. That's not an insignificant difference.
Eh...not really. A lot of things can skew the data 3%. It's pretty tough to skew the data 11% (the difference between KS and LK)

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And it grows larger if you don't count the 13 wins that Capel had vacated. I assume Lon might have been able to add a few Ws to his ledger if he cheated.
The one reason Lon is better than Capel -- Lon runs a clean program. As for on the court results...there's not much difference.

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As for your 25-win stat, that just shows how arbitrary cutoff points can be used to manipulate things. He also has a 23-win season, a 24-win season, and a 20-win season. Most college basketball people point to 20 wins as the benchmark of a good team when you are talking about teams playing in a Power 5 league, but you have chosen another number to suit your narrative.
15 win seasons suck. 20 win seasons are quality. 25 win seasons are very good. 30 win seasons are elite. They all just indicate something different. As I stated earlier, Kelvin won 25+ games 5 of his last 7 years here. I think he could have won 20 wins with a whole team doing the bird box challenge.

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Bigger question to me is, why does it seem like so many people want to discuss the Lon/Kelvin thing as if OU chose one over the other? It's not like OU fired Kelvin and then hired Lon. Kelvin left on his own for a better job, and Kruger arrived at OU five years later to try to resurrect a program that was coming off two awful seasons and that was in hot water with the NCAA. Hot take -- Billy, Kelvin, and Lon are all good basketball coaches that 95% of programs in America would be lucky to have.
Fair point. Except for the last point -- Lon is not a top 5% coach. If Lon and OU parted ways after this season, and Lon didn't retire, I suspect he'd end up at a high quality mid-major program.
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