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Old 09-25-2019, 04:18 PM   #51
Zimwillett
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I completely agree with your take on Sampson's phone calls, but not so much on The Brow's dealings. We were very fortunate to get off as easy as we did on that. Taliaferro looked guilty as hell. The fact that we bought players is disappointing, but the fact that we bought a team with a losing record makes it one of the darkest seasons in our history.

I used to take a pretty strong stance against hiring coaches with a unibrow regardless of any other details, but Anthony Davis has done a lot to soften my stance.
So a few things:

1. I agree that OU needed to be punished for the Gallon deal. Never said otherwise. But you are burying your head in the sand if you believe the $3,000 from a Florida financial advisor is anything close to the systematic and high level dirt KU has been doing.

2. A big part of the reason OU "got off easy" was that the school self-reported, cooperated in the investigation, and proposed its own penalties (which the NCAA increased by one year). Again, it is critical to note the difference between OU's situation, and KU's. The NCAA finds out about the KU scandal because of an FBI criminal investigation and trial.

3. I think the "phone calls" thing is relevant. Again, that's something OU compliance self-reported. The NCAA then used that to enhance OU's penalties as a repeat violator when they self-reported on the Gallon issue. How many of Self's violations over the years went unreported? If this isn't something the NCAA will consider, it's a terrible way to incentivize compliance. Universities who self report on something as petty as phone calls get hammered. Universities who let a systematic buying of recruits outsourced to the school's apparel licencee go unreported for years...no biggie.

The more I read, the more I think that KU is going to get hammered, but the NCAA is notoriously incompetent, so we'll see.
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:15 PM   #52
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So a few things:

1. I agree that OU needed to be punished for the Gallon deal. Never said otherwise. But you are burying your head in the sand if you believe the $3,000 from a Florida financial advisor is anything close to the systematic and high level dirt KU has been doing.

2. A big part of the reason OU "got off easy" was that the school self-reported, cooperated in the investigation, and proposed its own penalties (which the NCAA increased by one year). Again, it is critical to note the difference between OU's situation, and KU's. The NCAA finds out about the KU scandal because of an FBI criminal investigation and trial.

3. I think the "phone calls" thing is relevant. Again, that's something OU compliance self-reported. The NCAA then used that to enhance OU's penalties as a repeat violator when they self-reported on the Gallon issue. How many of Self's violations over the years went unreported? If this isn't something the NCAA will consider, it's a terrible way to incentivize compliance. Universities who self report on something as petty as phone calls get hammered. Universities who let a systematic buying of recruits outsourced to the school's apparel licencee go unreported for years...no biggie.

The more I read, the more I think that KU is going to get hammered, but the NCAA is notoriously incompetent, so we'll see.
I full-heartedly agree that what KU is doing is much worse, and I never meant to imply otherwise.

Did we self-report the phone calls? I thought we got turned in by Sutton, but that's just off the top of my head.
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Old 09-26-2019, 05:05 AM   #53
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2. A big part of the reason OU "got off easy" was that the school self-reported, cooperated in the investigation, and proposed its own penalties (which the NCAA increased by one year). Again, it is critical to note the difference between OU's situation, and KU's. The NCAA finds out about the KU scandal because of an FBI criminal investigation and trial.
Another big part of OU getting let off so easily was because of Joe C's persistence in hiring Lon Kruger. He badly needed to show the NCAA that the two rounds of issues over 5 years was coming to an abrupt halt by the hiring of a guy who squeaks when he moves.

Yes, the NCAA is hypocritical, unfair, a joke, etc, etc, but I don't think KU is getting out of this without getting knocked down pretty hard.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:52 AM   #54
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I full-heartedly agree that what KU is doing is much worse, and I never meant to imply otherwise.

Did we self-report the phone calls? I thought we got turned in by Sutton, but that's just off the top of my head.
You could be right about the calls. My recollection was OU self-reported, but after (very) brief search, I didn't find anything. It's been a while so you could be right.

I do know that OU self-reported the Gallon situation. To me, that's where the critical difference between OU and KU lies. The NCAA recognizes that really the only way it can effectively enforce its rules is to encourage internal monitoring, reporting, and cooperation by the universities. If that is going to be your system, then if/when you don't receive proper monitoring, reporting, and/or cooperation, the hammer needs to drop. Hard.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:41 AM   #55
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I had understood that the $3K was indeed a loan and was paid back -- is that the case? I'm not saying that makes it ok, but it's certainly different than outright paying players.
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:40 AM   #56
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I had understood that the $3K was indeed a loan and was paid back -- is that the case? I'm not saying that makes it ok, but it's certainly different than outright paying players.
this is my understanding
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:41 AM   #57
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I had understood that the $3K was indeed a loan and was paid back -- is that the case? I'm not saying that makes it ok, but it's certainly different than outright paying players.
That’s the way I remember it too. The loan had to be paid back before Gallon was allowed to attend school.

There is no doubt that Oronde Taliaferro made a mistake. But what he did was not even close to the pay for play schemes described in this scandal, and it still cost him his job.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:06 PM   #58
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I had understood that the $3K was indeed a loan and was paid back -- is that the case? I'm not saying that makes it ok, but it's certainly different than outright paying players.
Well, first the story was that Taliaferro had no idea who this guy was. But the 41 calls between them begged to differ. So the story changed to it being a loan so that he could pay his tuition. You think that transaction required 41 calls? I sure don't.

It's kinda strange that so many are jumping to Taliaferro's aid here. Everytime Capel was mentioned as a great recruiter at Duke, most the board hopped on the illegal recruiting-train. Yet somehow nobody can imagine that Taliaferro was buying players? The guy's entire reputation was based on his ability to recruit players. What do most great recruiters in college basketball have in common? It's certainly not a unibrow.

And I know the propagation of this strawman won't stop, but again -- I never said that what we did was worse than KU. KU's sins are far more egregious.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:03 PM   #59
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Well, first the story was that Taliaferro had no idea who this guy was. But the 41 calls between them begged to differ. So the story changed to it being a loan so that he could pay his tuition. You think that transaction required 41 calls? I sure don't.

It's kinda strange that so many are jumping to Taliaferro's aid here. Everytime Capel was mentioned as a great recruiter at Duke, most the board hopped on the illegal recruiting-train. Yet somehow nobody can imagine that Taliaferro was buying players? The guy's entire reputation was based on his ability to recruit players. What do most great recruiters in college basketball have in common? It's certainly not a unibrow.

And I know the propagation of this strawman won't stop, but again -- I never said that what we did was worse than KU. KU's sins are far more egregious.
And your insistence that a) Gallon was "bought" and b) that people are jumping to "Taliaferro's aid" is just as much a strawman. The transaction was reported in the media (national and local) as a loan (and also, if my memory serves, that it was paid back). All anyone's said here is that that is different from outright buying players. Even 10 years ago, $3K would have hardly have been enough to "buy" a McDonald's AA.
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:56 AM   #60
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And your insistence that a) Gallon was "bought" and b) that people are jumping to "Taliaferro's aid" is just as much a strawman. The transaction was reported in the media (national and local) as a loan (and also, if my memory serves, that it was paid back). All anyone's said here is that that is different from outright buying players. Even 10 years ago, $3K would have hardly have been enough to "buy" a McDonald's AA.
all of this
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:07 AM   #61
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I want KU to get hammered big time but honestly, I'll be shocked if they are.

I thought UNC was going to get hammered and they wormed their way out of any sanctions.

Put me in the I'll believe it when I see it group and I do hope I have to come back and eat my words.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:20 AM   #62
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For those who believe that the NCAA never does anything to blue bloods/big name schools, check out this tweet from Mark Titus, who is one of the funniest (and smartest) college basketball writers around. The Tark reference is great -- point being, while Tark's comment was funny as heck and arguably relevant at the time, now it is just overused and inaccurate.

"NCAA took title and Final Four away from Louisville. UCLA, Michigan, Villanova, and Ohio St. have all vacated Final 4s. UK lost a Sweet 16. KU was banned from tourney the year after they won it. UConn was banned year before they won it. But Tark said that thing that one time lol"
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:01 AM   #63
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I have already gone on record in saying Bill Self will not be able to lie his way out of trouble this time.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me the NCAA (judging by the news reports) is moving to make Self their main focus. This is a little different than UNC where the school not the coach appeared to be the primary target.

If I’m right that Bill Self will be the one to take the heat, that could be the NCAA’s way of softening the blow on KU. After all, the school is the NCAA’s “cash cow” not the coach. I’m not saying KU will not be sanctioned, just that it might not be a severe blow if Bill plays the role of the “hero” and accepts the blame. He rides off into the sunset to the NBA, KU is sanctioned for one or two violations and all is well in “Rock Chalk Land.”

A product of my vivid imagination? Perhaps. But I don’t think Self or KU is going to be able to skate through this unscathed this time!
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:14 AM   #64
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I have already gone on record in saying Bill Self will not be able to lie his way out of trouble this time.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me the NCAA (judging by the news reports) is moving to make Self their main focus. This is a little different than UNC where the school not the coach appeared to be the primary target.

If I’m right that Bill Self will be the one to take the heat, that could be the NCAA’s way of softening the blow on KU. After all, the school is the NCAA’s “cash cow” not the coach. I’m not saying KU will not be sanctioned, just that it might not be a severe blow if Bill plays the role of the “hero” and accepts the blame. He rides off into the sunset to the NBA, KU is sanctioned for one or two violations and all is well in “Rock Chalk Land.”

A product of my vivid imagination? Perhaps. But I don’t think Self or KU is going to be able to skate through this unscathed this time!
I hope so badly you are right!!!
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Old 09-27-2019, 12:47 PM   #65
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And your insistence that a) Gallon was "bought" and b) that people are jumping to "Taliaferro's aid" is just as much a strawman. The transaction was reported in the media (national and local) as a loan (and also, if my memory serves, that it was paid back). All anyone's said here is that that is different from outright buying players. Even 10 years ago, $3K would have hardly have been enough to "buy" a McDonald's AA.
A strawman argument is when someone refutes claims the other side never made. That's not the term you're looking for -- several on here have defended Taliaferro's actions and stated that Gallon wasn't bought. You may disagree with my stance, but I'm not refuting points that weren't made.
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Old 09-27-2019, 01:37 PM   #66
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several on here have defended Taliaferro's actions and stated that Gallon wasn't bought. You may disagree with my stance, but I'm not refuting points that weren't made.
Yes, you are. No one defended Taliaferro -- they said we deserved to get punished and that what he did was wrong, but they also said that what he did was not "buying players" in the sense that term is typically used (and as it applies to the current KU case).

I was one of those posters, and I stand by what I said. Your bringing up Taliaferro in that context seemed to be a "What about..." response that equated his actions to what KU is accused of. You did clarify your stance in later posts, but it's your initial reaction that I think many were reacting and responding to, and as long as you continue to insist we "bought" a McDonald's AA (at the bargain price of $3K, no less), you're likely to keep getting pushback.
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Old 09-27-2019, 06:03 PM   #67
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Yes, you are. No one defended Taliaferro -- they said we deserved to get punished and that what he did was wrong, but they also said that what he did was not "buying players" in the sense that term is typically used
I said Taliaferro was buying players. You, and a few others, said that he was not buying players. Do I need to define "defend" for you as well?

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as long as you continue to insist we "bought" a McDonald's AA (at the bargain price of $3K, no less), you're likely to keep getting pushback.
If I bought a vacuum on clearance, did I still buy it?
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:36 PM   #68
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I said Taliaferro was buying players. You, and a few others, said that he was not buying players. Do I need to define "defend" for you as well?



If I bought a vacuum on clearance, did I still buy it?
This is funny but you’re wrong here. Anyone with knowledge of the situation knows he wasn’t bought.

He would’ve made it to campus either way. $3k isn’t buying a burger boy. Did O pay the loan off? Yes. If you consider that buying... go ahead.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:55 PM   #69
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Do I need to define "defend" for you as well?
No, but you might want to work on your reading comprehension. No one defended what Taliaferro did or claimed that he hadn't done anything wrong or, for that matter, opined that OU shouldn't have been punished. They just said he didn't "buy" Gallon. And he didn't.

If one states that a guy who's guilty of assault and battery didn't commit murder because the victim didn't die, they're not defending the perp -- they're just correcting the guy who got it wrong in stating someone was murdered.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:43 AM   #70
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Not sure if everyone saw this, but KU put out a video with Bill Self prominently wearing an Adidas logo shirt and big gold chains. One of the chains has a $ on it. I doubt that was an accident. Hopefully they flaunt themselves right into a major issue.
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Old 09-28-2019, 05:03 PM   #71
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No, but you might want to work on your reading comprehension. No one defended what Taliaferro did or claimed that he hadn't done anything wrong or, for that matter, opined that OU shouldn't have been punished. They just said he didn't "buy" Gallon. And he didn't.

If one states that a guy who's guilty of assault and battery didn't commit murder because the victim didn't die, they're not defending the perp -- they're just correcting the guy who got it wrong in stating someone was murdered.
Defending someone does not imply innocence or guilt, nor does it imply success or failure. This is a basic definition I learned in elementary school, but to be fair to you, I did go to an above average elementary school. Feel free to google the definition of defense.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:45 PM   #72
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This is funny but you’re wrong here. Anyone with knowledge of the situation knows he wasn’t bought.

He would’ve made it to campus either way. $3k isn’t buying a burger boy. Did O pay the loan off? Yes. If you consider that buying... go ahead.
I'm not going to pretend to know every detail, but I have it on good authority that Taliaferro was dirty. Ask your buddies about how Patrick Beverley ended up at Arkansas.
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Old 09-28-2019, 08:31 PM   #73
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Defending someone does not imply innocence or guilt, nor does it imply success or failure. This is a basic definition I learned in elementary school, but to be fair to you, I did go to an above average elementary school. Feel free to google the definition of defense.
I'll reiterate: No one was defending Taliferro -- they were correcting your mischaracterization of his misdeeds. Those are two distinct actions.

That said, if you wish to delve even further back into your illustrious academic career and brag about the words you learned in nursery school, have at it.
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Old 09-29-2019, 09:09 AM   #74
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I'm not going to pretend to know every detail, but I have it on good authority that Taliaferro was dirty. Ask your buddies about how Patrick Beverley ended up at Arkansas.
I’m not defending OT.
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Old 09-29-2019, 05:54 PM   #75
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I'll reiterate: No one was defending Taliferro -- they were correcting your mischaracterization of his misdeeds. Those are two distinct actions.

That said, if you wish to delve even further back into your illustrious academic career and brag about the words you learned in nursery school, have at it.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/
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