Discuss Porter Moser thread DON'T DO IT ANYWHERE ELSE

[NorthCarolinaSooner]

Originally Posted by hoopsaustin

I don't find those names to be sooo amazing that it shoild have moved the needle by themselves.. McCasland apparently is even slower than PM at tempo. And i wouldnt be sold that mills is any better either.

McCasland is a Drew disciple having worked at Baylor......I was intigued by him when PM was hired but don't really think he would be a home run hire by any means.

[SoonerDutch]

Originally Posted by WichitaSooner

I thought it was interesting that ASU extended Bobby Hurley last night. He has made the tourney 3 times in 8 seasons -- I think all three times, they played in the First Four.

That got me thinking -- would anyone here be satisfied with that type of track record for OU? I can't imagine anyone would have signed up for that when PM was hired, especially considering the fact that we have a far better history (recent and more distant) of success than ASU. But now, seeing how many people feel like he should get a lengthy grace period for a variety of reasons, I fear we will become an ASU-like program -- willing to settle for a tourney appearance every two or three years as long as we don't ever go 10-21 or have off-the-court issues. I sure hope that isn't where we end up.

Probably higher standard than the ASU/Hurley example and I’m sure others could argue this sounds defeatist but considering the current level of commitment from the AD and the broader OU fanbase, would be more than content with a 2017/2018-2021/2022 run to close out the decade.

Fairly low ceiling but always in bubble conversation and more often than not in the tournament (~80% in my sample counting 2020 but again more often than not). Don’t make it past the first weekend but generally avoiding a string of truly awful performances in Reg season. If anything would like to see better in-conference performances, especially against rivals, but imagine that will get easier on a go-forward basis.

[WTSooner]

Originally Posted by SoonerDutch

.....and I’m sure others could argue this sounds defeatist but considering the current level of commitment from the AD and the broader OU fanbase,

Aside from a new arena, what is exactly hasn't the AD done for OU basketball?

His last two coaching hires were one of the most respected coaches in the game and one of the hottest coaching names at the time. Again, other than a new arena (which is a much more challenging endeavor then most on here want to admit), how is he short-changing our program?

[Soonerinkc]

Originally Posted by AnotherSoonerInTX

The First Four or the Final Four?

The post was regarding Arizona State, who has made the tournament three times in the past eight years, all with trips to the First Four.

Right now, we'd love to be playing on a Tuesday night in Dayton. But our history, goals and standards are higher than that. Thus, the frustration.

But yeah, three trips to the Final Four in eight years would be pretty awesome. Right now, we go every 14 years (1988, 2002, 2016). Our next appearance is due in 2030.

Oh… lol, ya I misread that…when I started my response I had read it right.. first 4 … then buddy came by we went over my bathroom remodel I’m doing and finished response.

My bad. Def not 1st four would be or should be OU’s level. Makes more sense since I pointed out we are very successful in the tourney.

My bad…

[SoonerDutch]

Originally Posted by WTSooner

Aside from a new arena, what is exactly hasn't the AD done for OU basketball?

His last two coaching hires were one of the most respected coaches in the game and one of the hottest coaching names at the time. Again, other than a new arena (which is a much more challenging endeavor then most on here want to admit), how is he short-changing our program?

“Unleashing the boosters” would be my other big ask but mainly the arena, just because it’s challenging doesn’t really impact my statement IMO.

To be clear I’m not criticizing Castiligone per say, it’s a big investment as you insinuate and the Athletic Department has a lot of priorities (football obviously, but other sports could conceivably offer a better ROI even in my basketball-biased mind).

Ultimately a big investment (like a new arena) is what it would likely take to get the program to a different level expectations wise for me. Could a more comprehensive NIL strategy along get us to a quasi-competitive standpoint? Sure, but even under a HofF coach we were consistently an 8-10 seed the last 5 years.

[Eielson]

Dusty May
Year 1: 17-16
Year 2: 17-15
Year 3: 13-10
Year 4: 19-15
Year 5: 35-3

Can't believe they kept him for 4 years despite no 20-win seasons or NIT/NCAA berths. They should have fired him midway through the second season, right?

[BCSooners]

Originally Posted by Eielson

Dusty May
Year 1: 17-16
Year 2: 17-15
Year 3: 13-10
Year 4: 19-15
Year 5: 35-3

Can't believe they kept him for 4 years despite no 20-win seasons or NIT/NCAA berths. They should have fired him midway through the second season, right?

FAU had 7 consecutive losing seasons before he got there, he hasn’t had a losing record yet. Also not a historically top 25 program that was consistently in the tournament for the past 40 years.

Again I’m not wanting Moser to get fired this year. Just it’s not a good comparison.

[mict085]

Originally Posted by Eielson

Dusty May
Year 1: 17-16
Year 2: 17-15
Year 3: 13-10
Year 4: 19-15
Year 5: 35-3

Can't believe they kept him for 4 years despite no 20-win seasons or NIT/NCAA berths. They should have fired him midway through the second season, right?

I guess context doesn’t matter to you. Just spouting your mouth off and trying to relate is somehow to Mosers failure. Cool story bro.

[Eielson]

Originally Posted by BCSooners

Again I’m not wanting Moser to get fired this year. Just it’s not a good comparison.

I'm not saying their paths are identical. I'm just pointing out a good example of a current coach who took several years to get things rolling, and didn't show much progression from year 1 to 2 (or even 1 to 4).

[cvangild]

Originally Posted by Eielson

I'm not saying their paths are identical. I'm just pointing out a good example of a current coach who took several years to get things rolling, and didn't show much progression from year 1 to 2 (or even 1 to 4).

Paul Mills went 11-21 and 11-21 in his first two seasons. ORU should have fired him as well.

Patience is non-existent with some of these "fans". For some reason, they think OU b-ball is beyond having a losing season. I guess it comes from the arrogant football mentality..I'm really not sure. Louisville just went 4-28 this year!! I'd say they have more b-ball tradition than us...could you imagine some of these idiots if OU went 4-28??

[WichitaSooner]

Originally Posted by cvangild

Paul Mills went 11-21 and 11-21 in his first two seasons. ORU should have fired him as well.

Patience is non-existent with some of these "fans". For some reason, they think OU b-ball is beyond having a losing season. I guess it comes from the arrogant football mentality..I'm really not sure. Louisville just went 4-28 this year!! I'd say they have more b-ball tradition than us...could you imagine some of these idiots if OU went 4-28??

Lol I’m sure if we went 4-28, you and others would probably still say Moser runs a good system and it’s not his fault because he inherited a terrible situation even though the program always made the tournament under his predecessor.

[skyvue]

Originally Posted by cvangild

could you imagine some of these idiots if OU went 4-28??

I can imagine a conversation that doesn't involve namecalling. How about you?

Prior to this season FAU had been to the NCAA tourney just once in its 30-year history as a D1 program. Prior to May's arrival, they'd endured seven straight losing seasons. He upped their win total by five his first season, inching them above .500 for the season. I can only imagine their fans were thrilled.

Can anyone claim, with a straight face, that the two programs were in any way analogous? That the expectations at the two schools were even in the same universe, much less the same ballpark? Of course not.

You guys still believe in Moser? Fine, you've got him for at least another year, and we all hope we see a huge turnaround next season. But don't insult our intelligence with random, cherry-picked "what about this guy??" comparisons.

[Eielson]

Originally Posted by skyvue

Can anyone claim, with a straight face, that the two programs were in any way analogous?

Nobody has claimed that or will, making this a mostly irrelevant strawman argument. The point being made was that it takes a few years to truly know what you have in a college coach, and that even if you don't make progression from year 1 to 2, it doesn't mean that the sky is falling. I've never said Moser will definitely be a great coach at our program, only that we don't have a large enough sample size to know. It's amusing how easily some of you get riled up by that notion.

[Eielson]

Originally Posted by WichitaSooner

Lol I’m sure if we went 4-28, you and others would probably still say Moser runs a good system and it’s not his fault because he inherited a terrible situation even though the program always made the tournament under his predecessor.

They went 13-19 the year prior to him and have mostly been on a downward spiral (with the exception of one year) since Pitino left in the midst of a major scandal, so yes, I think it would be fair to say that the sample size is too small on Kenny Payne.

One of these days, I hope you'll learn about sample size. It wasn't long ago that you had written off Buzz Williams as a bust at A&M and Mark Adams as a homerun for Texas Tech.

[WaymanFan]

I don't know if things are going to work out for Porter Moser here. However, I'm not a fan of replacing a head coach after only two seasons - primarily because I believe it will make it very hard to attract a better candidate. My primary worries about PM have less to do with his record after two years than they do with his personality and his eye for talent.

From a personality standpoint, I truly hope that I did not hear correctly that he does not let his assistants talk (or talk much) in practices. I certainly don't want a head coach who can't retain good assistant coaches. My hope is that I did not hear this correctly. Otherwise, I'm in favor of replacing him after next season if no noticeable improvement since a head-strong coach isn't much use if he's not winning.

At a school like OU, you also need to be able to spot a Buddy Hield or an Isaiah Cousins to be successful. He needs to have a map of what it will take to build a program, and then find those guys who can execute that blueprint. You can't take the Jeff Capel approach and just keep finding warm bodies.

Of course, when all is said and done, the head coach needs SUPPORT from the administration. If we can't compete with other schools on an even playing field, we won't be successful no matter who the head coach is.

[steverocks35]

Originally Posted by cvangild

Paul Mills went 11-21 and 11-21 in his first two seasons. ORU should have fired him as well.

Patience is non-existent with some of these "fans". For some reason, they think OU b-ball is beyond having a losing season. I guess it comes from the arrogant football mentality..I'm really not sure. Louisville just went 4-28 this year!! I'd say they have more b-ball tradition than us...could you imagine some of these idiots if OU went 4-28??

Yes, only a pure Sooner fan like cvanagalkdfao can talk about OU basketball. The rest of us mere mortals aren't "real" fans. We can only hope to aspire to the level of fandom of cvandfadlfkaj. Someday if I work really really hard at being a better fan and improve every single day I hope to be 1/100th of the fan cvadfadfaa is. If I improve as a Sooner fan every day for the next 30 years then and only then might I reach a level of enlightenment only ever reached by cvafdf324q and the Dalai Lama

[WichitaSooner]

Originally Posted by Eielson

They went 13-19 the year prior to him and have mostly been on a downward spiral (with the exception of one year) since Pitino left in the midst of a major scandal, so yes, I think it would be fair to say that the sample size is too small on Kenny Payne.

One of these days, I hope you'll learn about sample size. It wasn't long ago that you had written off Buzz Williams as a bust at A&M and Mark Adams as a homerun for Texas Tech.

Lol your first paragraph shows exactly why it’s so ludicrous for him to have mentioned Louisville. They haven’t been good recently and also were/are on NCAA sanctions.

As for sample size, is 20 years too small a sample size for Porter? Or are you impressed by three or four good years in two decades?

[WichitaSooner]

Originally Posted by Eielson

They went 13-19 the year prior to him and have mostly been on a downward spiral (with the exception of one year) since Pitino left in the midst of a major scandal, so yes, I think it would be fair to say that the sample size is too small on Kenny Payne.

One of these days, I hope you'll learn about sample size. It wasn't long ago that you had written off Buzz Williams as a bust at A&M and Mark Adams as a homerun for Texas Tech.

Buzz making the tourney for the first time in four years is supposed to be proof I was wrong about him? I guess that impressive first-round showing really impressed you. Adams proved to be a crappy human, which is why he got fired, not because of his coaching acumen. Let’s hope that by the time Moser gets fired, he can match the number of tournament appearances Adams had at Tech, but Il doubtful he can reach the lofty target of one bid.

[BoulderSooner]

Originally Posted by WichitaSooner

Lol I’m sure if we went 4-28, you and others would probably still say Moser runs a good system and it’s not his fault because he inherited a terrible situation even though the program always made the tournament under his predecessor.

If he had that record in year 2 he would not be our coach any longer

[Boom Soon]

When looking at other coaches it's easy to make an argument that Moser should get more time. I mean there are plenty of coaches who put it together year three, four and beyond. But, I think the issue for alot of Sooner fans is that for a team with such experience there was so little improvement from year one and two. Heck, you could make the argument OU was worse year one than year two. The team that got beat by Sam Houston was pretty much the exact team that got beat by OSU to finish the season, with the exception of the freshman. Turnovers, inability to score for long stretches, breakdowns on defense, weird subbing patterns, bad late game management, etc. It's all the same as last year. Couple those with a system that might not suitable to the Big 12 and it's hard to get excited about the future. Again, not that other coaches haven't turned things around in a few years, but because there is zero momentum going into next year.

How many OU basketball lowpoints did we hit last year?

1. Loss to Sam Houston State in game one
2. Some of the worst OU basketball to start the game against Iowa State (at home)
3. Losing to OSU three freaking times
4. The West Virginia game.
5. Consistent three or four game losing streaks in the Big 12

There was just never any real improvement from game to game, and to me, that's a bigger problem than the record itself.

[hoopsaustin]

I'm team wichita on PM overall. But 2 important things to keep in mind while evaluating PM:

1. NIL/open free agency is still brand new

2. Leaving big 12. I'm sure we are focusing every morsel of resources we can to football to hit the ground running when we swtich and also the big 12 is dicking us on the way out the door (i cannot be convinced otherwise). It may not be egregious at times, but the big 12 does not want tejas or ou to clearly establish that they are on whole other levels than the mid-major big 12.

[Eielson]

Originally Posted by WichitaSooner

Adams proved to be a crappy human, which is why he got fired, not because of his coaching acumen.

Adams and Moser had essentially the same record in the same conference. The only major difference was that while Moser was 2 games worse in conference, Adams was 7 games worse. The downward trajectory was supposed to confirm that Moser can't coach, but it doesn't mean the same for Adams?

[WichitaSooner]

Originally Posted by Eielson

Adams and Moser had essentially the same record in the same conference. The only major difference was that while Moser was 2 games worse in conference, Adams was 7 games worse. The downward trajectory was supposed to confirm that Moser can't coach, but it doesn't mean the same for Adams?

The difference between the two is that Adams coached a team that was severely hampered by injuries this season while we Moser didn’t have a single rotation player miss any time with injury. And I’ve not said that THE reason Moser can’t coach is because we were worse this year than last. That’s a reason, but far from the only. I think he did a poor job both seasons. Adams at least had one good year. Moser started bad in year one with the turnovers and late-game issues, and somehow got even worse overall. He also hasn’t shown an ability to bring in enough difference makes in the portal, which is just about the most important part of the job these days.

[Eielson]

Originally Posted by WichitaSooner

The difference between the two is that Adams coached a team that was severely hampered by injuries this season

False. The reason Tech was worse was because they lost two key players to the portal that Beard had gifted him. We're not talking about guys who had good years in midmajor -- McCullar started all year for a 1 seed and Shannon was the best player on a tournament team. So much for mastering the portal.

Try again.

[SoonerinNC]

I agree that 2 years is a short time to fully evaluate a new coach.

Several things I look for in a coach.

Do they recruit well. Porter seemed to get a couple of good players in Usan and Oweh. I felt Schroeder should have played more because it looked like he had the ability but the skills were shaky at times. Playing time is the way to fix that.
I would not be suprised to see Benny thrive at his new location.

Do the players improve. Appeared that Cortes and Hill were just as off and on this year as last year. Jacob showed early improvement but faded as the season went on. Noland a definite dropoff from his freshman year. Can't say I saw much improvement in any player.

Offensive and defensive schemes. Hardest part. Those things are far more complicated than when I played and coached. But an semi-educated guess I would give Porter a B on defense and a C- on offense. We seemed befuddlesdon offense at times. Even the defense seemed to drop off late in the season.

Game strategy and adjustments. The number of close losses seem to indicate Porter may have been outcoached a bit at crucial times. Playing time seemed to be inconsistent. Noland way too long as a starter with significant minutes with little or no contribution. And suddenly almost disapeared. Oweh with minimal minutes for much of the season and suddenly a starter. Joe Bam invisible for game after game and suddenly he appears for good playing time. Benny never many minutes but looked really good and athletic for his size at times. Seemed inconsistent and uncertain who would be on the floor and for how long.

Next season is important for Porter. Will he improve on his weaknesses or will we see the same thing next season. Some people have the ability to grow others don't.