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Old 10-17-2019, 06:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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I think the key is if OU gets better as the year moves on and not go the other way.
I couldn't agree more. We've had three years in a row which November / December was better than January / February...time to put an end to that - and I think we will.
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

I hope we're good enough in November and December that it's hard to improve upon when conference play starts -- but I'm all in on no big drop-off.
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Old 10-17-2019, 07:25 PM   #28
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

Everyone keeps saying we return our 3 best players from last year, but Christian James is not coming back
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:04 AM   #29
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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Everyone keeps saying we return our 3 best players from last year, but Christian James is not coming back
I was thinking the same thing. The only rationale would be that some project Bieniemy to be a better all-around player in his second year than James would have been if he had another year of eligibility.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:37 AM   #30
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

It would be nice to have James but there are enough guys with the same type skills. Sometimes guys leave a hole that's harder to fill.
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Old 10-18-2019, 07:04 AM   #31
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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Everyone keeps saying we return our 3 best players from last year, but Christian James is not coming back
JB was a better player than James from about January 1 on last year. Passing, handles, defense, he was far better than James. Also shot better, albeit he was very selective in the number of attempts. You can probably count on one hand the number of conference games last season in which James really made a significant, positive impact. He had a very good noncon, but faded significantly once league started. Plus, as a fourth year guy, he had reached his ceiling. JB still has tons of time to improve.

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Old 10-18-2019, 08:20 AM   #32
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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JB was a better player than James from about January 1 on last year. Passing, handles, defense, he was far better than James. Also shot better, albeit he was very selective in the number of attempts. You can probably count on one hand the number of conference games last season in which James really made a significant, positive impact. He had a very good noncon, but faded significantly once league started. Plus, as a fourth year guy, he had reached his ceiling. JB still has tons of time to improve.
James ceiling might be lower, but last year James was better than Jamal. James was 1st in ppg, 2nd in rpg, and 3rd in apg.
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:33 AM   #33
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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James ceiling might be lower, but last year James was better than Jamal. James was 1st in ppg, 2nd in rpg, and 3rd in apg.
Jamal was first in assists, first in steals, first in three-point shooting percentage. One can find stats to support either player.

I appreciate all Christian did as a Sooner, but personally, if given a choice between having Bieniemy or James on the team this season, I would choose Jamal.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:17 AM   #34
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

Ok lets break it down then

PPG

James 14.6
Bieneiemy 4.9

Blocks per game

James 0.2
Bieniemy 0.2

Steals per Game

James 1.2
Bieniemy 1.4

Assits per game

James 1.9
Bieniemy 3.5

Rebounds per game

James 6.2
Bieniemy 2.4

Free Throws Made/attempt/%per game

James 2.4/3.1/76.6
Bieniemy 0.4/.06/63.6

3 Pointers

James 2.0/5.9/34.7
Bieniemy 0.8/2.0/40.3

Field Goals

James 5.1/12.3/41.1
Bieniemy 1.9/4.7/39.1

MGP
James 33.1
Bieneiemy 25.3

So if Bieniemy was better why was Lon letting James shoot more and play more? Does he not know who's better?
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:42 AM   #35
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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Jamal was first in assists, first in steals, first in three-point shooting percentage. One can find stats to support either player.

I appreciate all Christian did as a Sooner, but personally, if given a choice between having Bieniemy or James on the team this season, I would choose Jamal.
This season probably but I think James was OU’s 2nd best player last year.
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:03 PM   #36
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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So if Bieniemy was better why was Lon letting James shoot more and play more? Does he not know who's better?
Anyone who knows Lon knows that he doesn't restrict players when it comes to shooting. James shot more not because Lon "let" him shoot more. He shot more because JB focused on running the offense and facilitating for others. Personally, I wish he would have shot more often, but as a freshman, he obviously was more concerned with making good decisions and getting others involved. Plus, James was a shooting guard. I think it is pretty common for a shooting guard to take more shots than a point guard. To suggest that that means the shooting guard is automatically the better player seems overly simplistic. I also think just using stats to evaluate this isn't the best gauge, but if you want to go that route, I would suggest you focus on CJ's numbers from January 1 on, because it is from that date forward that I think JB became the better overall player. James was great in November and most of December, but took a huge step back after that. JB kept getting better, including in ways that don't show up in a box score.

In any event, I certainly never intended this to become a debate about CJ when I posted that we return our three best players. Even if you disagree with that, my overall point is that while we do have tons of new players this season, we will have four very good starters (including Reaves) with a significant amount of experience.
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:58 PM   #37
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

I'd be pissed if we didn't finish higher than 8th. Lon would have no excuses.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:32 PM   #38
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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I'd be pissed if we didn't finish higher than 8th. Lon would have no excuses.
I'm right there with you on that first part.

Second part? Don't think Lon is or ever has been an "excuse" guy.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:56 PM   #39
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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So if Bieniemy was better why was Lon letting James shoot more and play more? Does he not know who's better?
That's a little fallacious. Bienemy was a true freshman, James was a senior with a lot of run under his belt. By your rationale, Stephen Pledger was "better" than Buddy Hield because he shot and scored more when he was a senior during the 2012-13 season (Pledger's senior/Buddy's Freshman)

That being said, I generally agree with you that people are tending to undervalue CJ's contribution. You can't easily replace that much experience. And frankly, I think OU's overall lack of experience is a big reason why I don't think the #8 preseason projection is all that unfair.
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Old 10-18-2019, 04:45 PM   #40
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That's a little fallacious. Bienemy was a true freshman, James was a senior with a lot of run under his belt. By your rationale, Stephen Pledger was "better" than Buddy Hield because he shot and scored more when he was a senior during the 2012-13 season (Pledger's senior/Buddy's Freshman)

That being said, I generally agree with you that people are tending to undervalue CJ's contribution. You can't easily replace that much experience. And frankly, I think OU's overall lack of experience is a big reason why I don't think the #8 preseason projection is all that unfair.
In 2012-2013 pledger was better than buddy absolutely. Buddy got better from there. And what happens if Jamal develops like others not named buddy? So yes most are discrediting what Christian James meant to last years team
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Old 10-18-2019, 04:59 PM   #41
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In 2012-2013 pledger was better than buddy absolutely. Buddy got better from there. And what happens if Jamal develops like others not names buddy? So yes most are discrediting what Christian James meant to last years tea
This. Senior Buddy was barely recognizable compared to his freshman year. Nobody in their right mind would have expected that kind of growth.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:15 PM   #42
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

I think it's not at all unreasonable to expect Bieniemy to show significant improvement this season.
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Old 10-18-2019, 07:02 PM   #43
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In 2012-2013 pledger was better than buddy absolutely. Buddy got better from there. And what happens if Jamal develops like others not named buddy? So yes most are discrediting what Christian James meant to last years team
I am the one who said JB was one of our three best and believe me, discrediting James was not even remotely on my mind. I can consider JB better than James without thinking James was a bad player. Having said that, I'd again ask you to go back and look at his game-by-game production last season and evaluate to what extent you think he was a key contributor for the final 20-25 games. He was a guy who didn't create shots for others or create a ton off the bounce. His value was tied primarily to his shooting, and he shot incredibly poorly for the vast majority of the season. IMHO, JB provided more overall value, even though James obviously scored more on much higher volume shooting.
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:12 PM   #44
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

Here’s my comments on a couple of topics in this thread.

First, James was one of our 2 best players on the team last year in my opinion. It’s not even close. The team depended on him to play well and be their leader. Looking at the stats, he was first in scoring and second in rebounding. Teams focused on stopping him because we didn’t have anyone else who was an offensive threat. He was a stud on the boards with that big body even though he was just 6’4”. Those are 2 of the more important stats.... if not the most. Jamal on the other hand played well for a freshman at the PG position, but he really wasn’t an offensive threat. I remember one big game where he was hot (Texas?), but not much else. He was first in 3 point percentage but almost didn’t have enough attempts to qualify.... Many of those he was wide open because teams tended to overplay James and Manek on the perimeter.

Now for the discussion on Texas being always ranked ahead of OU in the pre-season. You can knock Shaka as a coach but he’s a recruiting machine. He’s signed a bunch of top 100 kids (Miles Turner, Mo Bamba, etc.) whereas Trae is really the only top rated recruit that Lon and his staff have ever signed.... until this year (really only Harmon was highly ranked nationally). It’s Shaka’s recruiting that gets the voters excited.
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:47 PM   #45
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

I didn't feel CJ was top 3 on our team by season's end.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:52 PM   #46
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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I'd be pissed if we didn't finish higher than 8th. Lon would have no excuses.
I don't know anything about all the new guys we got coming in. Really outside of Bienemy, Doolittle, and Manek we don't have a ton of experience. It is better than what we had coming back into last year though. I think this years Big 12 will also be similar to last year where the top 8 or so are going to be pretty good. I do expect the team to at least be good but it's hard to tell how good offensively you are with not a lot of shooters returning. We got the 2 forwards coming back and a decent point guard.
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Old 10-18-2019, 11:54 PM   #47
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Here’s my comments on a couple of topics in this thread.

First, James was one of our 2 best players on the team last year in my opinion. It’s not even close. The team depended on him to play well and be their leader. Looking at the stats, he was first in scoring and second in rebounding. Teams focused on stopping him because we didn’t have anyone else who was an offensive threat. He was a stud on the boards with that big body even though he was just 6’4”. Those are 2 of the more important stats.... if not the most. Jamal on the other hand played well for a freshman at the PG position, but he really wasn’t an offensive threat. I remember one big game where he was hot (Texas?), but not much else. He was first in 3 point percentage but almost didn’t have enough attempts to qualify.... Many of those he was wide open because teams tended to overplay James and Manek on the perimeter.

Now for the discussion on Texas being always ranked ahead of OU in the pre-season. You can knock Shaka as a coach but he’s a recruiting machine. He’s signed a bunch of top 100 kids (Miles Turner, Mo Bamba, etc.) whereas Trae is really the only top rated recruit that Lon and his staff have ever signed.... until this year (really only Harmon was highly ranked nationally). It’s Shaka’s recruiting that gets the voters excited.
Texas did finish higher than us in the Big 12 last year.
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Old 10-19-2019, 05:31 AM   #48
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

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Texas did finish higher than us in the Big 12 last year.
Then the NIT
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:04 AM   #49
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

I'm not much for revision history. The SoonerStats website shows an "efficiency" rating broken out by the computation directly below. Based on this, there are two things you can debate: 1) which of these three players were the best on the 2019 team - James, Manek or Doolittle, and 2) who was the 4th best player on the team. Doolittle (efficiency 15), James (14) and Manek (13) were the only three players on the team with an Efficiency Rating higher than an 8.

Efficiency (EFF) = Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks - Missed FG - Missed FT - Turnovers
EFF/M = Efficiency / Minutes


I'll stick with my earlier post that it's understandable that many believe Bieniemy would be better than James THIS YEAR if James had another year of eligibility. Hopefully, we can all at least agree that would be a desirable outcome.
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:19 AM   #50
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Default Re: Big 12 Preseason Poll

OU will miss CJ, but Reaves and Bienemy should be able to make up for his loss. And then you should obviously get a little more from Manek and Doolittle.

Sounds like an obvious statement, but to me, this team will be as good as Harmon's production. If he plays up to his potential, I think OU ends up 4/5 in the league and wins a game in the NCAA tourney.

Either way, I'm excited for the first game.
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