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Old 05-17-2017, 08:33 PM   #2001
tycat947
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Default Re: Softball

Patty about as happy as Carol Hutchins from Michigan. I don't blame her or countless other coaches, I'm sure. She will use as motivation but committee seeds was horrible!

http://oklahoma.247sports.com/Articl...ftbal-52784808
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:27 PM   #2002
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By contrast to Georgia and their 7-21 record vs. the NCAA field, Minnesota went 17-3 against the field. Yet, they are both in a 2 vs. 3 game.
I understand your point and cannot disagree with the appearances. But the system only assigns 25% or the rpi ranking to Georgia's 7-21 record and Minnesota's 17-3 record. The other 75% may justify Georgia's inclusion and who and where they play. I assume it does because all victories over whomever count the same in the calculations. For certain what you do on the field is only 1/3 as important to your rpi as what others do on the field.
Begets the question why. The NCAA does not give the public the answer to that question.

Moreover full disclosure might confirm that the 25%+50%+50% is an ill conceived methodology that needs to be changed. But without full transparency we will never know. I think our personal disagreement is you think that seedings with home field advantage has a greater impact in determining the ultimate winner than I think it does.

I look at OU going on the road for 5 regionals since 2000 and winning all 5. I see Tulsa winning the regional in Norman in 2009 and I know it is far from impossible to win on the road in the NCAA tournament. Neutral sites are the only way to eliminate any home field advantage and you and I both know they are not going schedule approximately 150 tournament games all on neutral sites.

I think that using opponents wp and opponents' opponents wp in determining the best team is very effective to measure SOS and if the home field advantage is going to be given anyone it should go to the teams who have the best body of work for the full season against the strongest SOS thereby earning that advantage.

If you play in a weak conference and have national aspirations schedule non-conference games that gives you the opportunity to play against about 15+ top 25 teams with about 1/3 of them possible top 10 teams then win 9 or 10 of those games. If you schedule only 4-5 such teams and win only half of them accept the consequence.

This is America and life is not always fair, nor will it ever be. The rpi is mostly very fair but many complaints are justified and should be addressed by the committee. A more informed public might display more acceptance of the system.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:01 AM   #2003
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Now appears there is a good chance all the regional games will be played as scheduled for the regional on Friday. The weather outlook for Friday, May 19th is forecasting about a 20-24% chance of rain for any hour 11:00 am to 4:00 pm. No rain now in the forecast for Saturday and Sunday.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/nor...t/330127?day=2

Going up to 53% at 5:00 pm.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/nor...330127?hour=41
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:03 AM   #2004
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As the OU head softball coach I fully understand Patty's feeling disrespected. As an OU fan I am distraught as well. But were I a member of the committee my position would be the rpi system list the Sooners as #11 in the rpi and you are requesting I usurp Minnesota, Baylor, A&M and Tennessee and place you in the top 8 in the seedings.

The committee concured in part as they did supplant both Minnesota and Baylor they did not concur with regard to A&M and Tennessee. If you compare OU and Tennessee's records it is easy to see their basis for selecting Tennessee as the #8 seed.

For the season OU played 10 rpi ranked teams and had a record of 5-5 . Tennessee played 22 games against ranked teams and went 17-6. Against top ten teams OU was 3-5. Tennessee 3-3. Advantage Tennessee.

Over the last 25 games OU was 24-1, Tennessee was 20-5. By margin of victory over the last 25 games OU out scored their opponents by 4 runs or more 13 times and lost zero. Tennessee also had 13 wins by 4+ runs but lost 4 times by 4 or more. I call this close to a push because of the quality of the Vol opponents.

Over the last 25 games OU was 2-1 against the top 25, Tennessee 13-5. Advantage Tennessee. Against the top 10 OU was 2-1 and Tennessee was 3-3. Slight advantage OU. Also OU was on a bigger role the last 25 games winning 24 but only 12% were against the top 25 teams. Tennessee had 4 more losses the last 25 games but 72% of those games were against top 25 teams. That is 60% more than the Sooners played. I'll this a push but the SOS was strongly in favor of the Vols.

Should the committee usurp Tennessee in the #8 seeding because the Sooners were winning 4 more games than the Vols the last 25 against far inferior competition and had was a +1 wins against the top ten while the Vols broke even in twice as many games? Or should the Vols prevail based on their quality of play against stronger competition the entire season.

I am inclined to begrudgingly support the math of the system that ranked the Vols 3 slots higher in the rpi based on their entire season's body of work along with the committee's subjective decision to seed Tennessee #8 and OU #10.

When questioned about his thought regarding Washington not OU making last year's CFP Bob Stoops' position was basically we all knew the rules/guidelines before the season started and there is nothing to discuss. If you don't like the rules change them before the season starts next year. I concur.

This discussion has become moot. I'm out as no one hear has any suggestions on how to improve the system they merely want to ***** about it needing to be fixed because they don't like the results. But that is normal seldom does anymore than 51% like the results of any outcome. They would rather moan about their displeasure.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:34 AM   #2005
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I understand your point and cannot disagree with the appearances. But the system only assigns 25% or the rpi ranking to Georgia's 7-21 record and Minnesota's 17-3 record. The other 75% may justify Georgia's inclusion and who and where they play. I assume it does because all victories over whomever count the same in the calculations. For certain what you do on the field is only 1/3 as important to your rpi as what others do on the field.
Begets the question why. The NCAA does not give the public the answer to that question.

Moreover full disclosure might confirm that the 25%+50%+50% is an ill conceived methodology that needs to be changed. But without full transparency we will never know. I think our personal disagreement is you think that seedings with home field advantage has a greater impact in determining the ultimate winner than I think it does.

I look at OU going on the road for 5 regionals since 2000 and winning all 5. I see Tulsa winning the regional in Norman in 2009 and I know it is far from impossible to win on the road in the NCAA tournament. Neutral sites are the only way to eliminate any home field advantage and you and I both know they are not going schedule approximately 150 tournament games all on neutral sites.

I think that using opponents wp and opponents' opponents wp in determining the best team is very effective to measure SOS and if the home field advantage is going to be given anyone it should go to the teams who have the best body of work for the full season against the strongest SOS thereby earning that advantage.

If you play in a weak conference and have national aspirations schedule non-conference games that gives you the opportunity to play against about 15+ top 25 teams with about 1/3 of them possible top 10 teams then win 9 or 10 of those games. If you schedule only 4-5 such teams and win only half of them accept the consequence.

This is America and life is not always fair, nor will it ever be. The rpi is mostly very fair but many complaints are justified and should be addressed by the committee. A more informed public might display more acceptance of the system.
You just don't get it. Over the past 7-8 years, the SEC has pumped millions of dollars into softball - no other conference has. Their facilities are off the charts. Marita Hynes looks like a dump compared to some stadiums in the SEC. They have ESPN and the ESPN SEC Network that televises or streams every single game in an SEC ballpark. This has not happened to any other conference. You make my point about Tennessee - they are rewarded simply because they play in the SEC. Now I would have seeded Tennessee above OU because of head to head but just simply saying that they played more Top 25 games is a simply a matter of conference affiliation. You say they should schedule more Top 25 in non-conference yet when half of them are in the SEC without need to schedule those games - it is not that easy. I know OU played Ole Miss, Miss State, Tennessee, Auburn, and Arkansas but most SEC teams don't want anything to do with playing OU. You don't get to pick your schedule at most Cali tourneys like Mary Nutter. They are announced by the tournament themselves.

They have strong teams - there is no doubt but what you don't seem to understand is that the RPI is ripe for manipulation due simply to the fact that now the committee counts every single SEC game as a Top 25-30 game. This means that a team can lose virtually every game and make the tournament and have a Top 30 RPI. The formula allows that - OU will NEVER get that situation in the Big 12. For that reason, OU will be perpetually at a disadvantage as will every team in a conference not named SEC or Pac 12. The RPI perpetuates that fact when you do not have a rule such as a .500 conference WL record.

And to say that the RPI is right all the time in softball - is a self fulfilling prophecy when the highest seeded teams play at home and the seeding is RPI based. It is a fact, that it is almost impossible to beat OU in Norman or Alabama in Tuscaloosa even when OU has a mediocre team. Same thing goes in Women's hoops - good luck beating Notre Dame in South Bend or UConn in Storrs.

The best thing OU can do is to get out of the Big 12 which lost its softball power when A&M, Nebraska, and Mizzou left. I guarantee you that OU would be a Top 8 seed if those three were still in the Big 12. OU played what 12 games against Top 30 RPI opponents and Georgia played 26. In conference, OU played 3 Top 30 RPI games and Georgia played 24. However, in non-conference OU played 9 and Georgia played 2. I know I used Georgia but I could have used Mizzou as easily or South Carolina. Again, this means the conference you are in determines your seeding fate for the most part. The Minnesota snub at the last second really proves that fact.

The bottom line is the SEC and Pac 12 have cornered the market for the RPI and there is really nothing the OU's and Minnesota's of the world can do about it. We are in the wrong conference. In the mean time, teams like Georgia and Mizzou can lose their way into the NCAA because they are a member of the SEC and are guaranteed a high RPI.

Time for me to head to Norman for some Softball.

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Old 05-18-2017, 08:53 AM   #2006
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When questioned about his thought regarding Washington not OU making last year's CFP Bob Stoops' position was basically we all knew the rules/guidelines before the season started and there is nothing to discuss. If you don't like the rules change them before the season starts next year. I concur.
This one is funny for me because I believe what Bob said was correct. It is an irony but football selection process (from BCS to current) is and has been much better than softball. First, it has more transparency. The Chairman of the Committee actually answers questions. Last year was clear cut - OU lost two games and UW lost one game going in. I don't believe the Minnesota snub type thing would have happened simply because of fear of the scrutiny. Softball is growing at such a rate - the WCWS has higher TV ratings than the baseball CWS. The scrutiny will grow.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:34 AM   #2007
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They have strong teams - there is no doubt but what you don't seem to understand is that the RPI is ripe for manipulation due simply to the fact that now the committee counts every single SEC game as a Top 25-30 game. This means that a team can lose virtually every game and make the tournament and have a Top 30 RPI. The formula allows that - OU will NEVER get that situation in the Big 12. For that reason, OU will be perpetually at a disadvantage as will every team in a conference not named SEC or Pac 12. The RPI perpetuates that fact when you do not have a rule such as a .500 conference WL record.

And to say that the RPI is right all the time in softball - is a self fulfilling prophecy when the highest seeded teams play at home and the seeding is RPI based. It is a fact, that it is almost impossible to beat OU in Norman or Alabama in Tuscaloosa even when OU has a mediocre team. Same thing goes in Women's hoops - good luck beating Notre Dame in South Bend or UConn in Storrs.
Yep
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:44 AM   #2008
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Glad you're out, Spock. Your love affair with stats, even those that don't support your argument, is tiresome. And your insistence that we, as fans, are uneducated simply because we don't agree with you is arrogant and condescending.


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Old 05-18-2017, 11:45 AM   #2009
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You just don't get it. Over the past 7-8 years, the SEC has pumped millions of dollars into softball - no other conference has. Their facilities are off the charts. Marita Hynes looks like a dump compared to some stadiums in the SEC. They have ESPN and the ESPN SEC Network that televises or streams every single game in an SEC ballpark. This has not happened to any other conference. You make my point about Tennessee - they are rewarded simply because they play in the SEC. Now I would have seeded Tennessee above OU because of head to head but just simply saying that they played more Top 25 games is a simply a matter of conference affiliation. You say they should schedule more Top 25 in non-conference yet when half of them are in the SEC without need to schedule those games - it is not that easy. I know OU played Ole Miss, Miss State, Tennessee, Auburn, and Arkansas but most SEC teams don't want anything to do with playing OU. You don't get to pick your schedule at most Cali tourneys like Mary Nutter. They are announced by the tournament themselves.

They have strong teams - there is no doubt but what you don't seem to understand is that the RPI is ripe for manipulation due simply to the fact that now the committee counts every single SEC game as a Top 25-30 game. This means that a team can lose virtually every game and make the tournament and have a Top 30 RPI. The formula allows that - OU will NEVER get that situation in the Big 12. For that reason, OU will be perpetually at a disadvantage as will every team in a conference not named SEC or Pac 12. The RPI perpetuates that fact when you do not have a rule such as a .500 conference WL record.

And to say that the RPI is right all the time in softball - is a self fulfilling prophecy when the highest seeded teams play at home and the seeding is RPI based. It is a fact, that it is almost impossible to beat OU in Norman or Alabama in Tuscaloosa even when OU has a mediocre team. Same thing goes in Women's hoops - good luck beating Notre Dame in South Bend or UConn in Storrs.

The best thing OU can do is to get out of the Big 12 which lost its softball power when A&M, Nebraska, and Mizzou left. I guarantee you that OU would be a Top 8 seed if those three were still in the Big 12. OU played what 12 games against Top 30 RPI opponents and Georgia played 26. In conference, OU played 3 Top 30 RPI games and Georgia played 24. However, in non-conference OU played 9 and Georgia played 2. I know I used Georgia but I could have used Mizzou as easily or South Carolina. Again, this means the conference you are in determines your seeding fate for the most part. The Minnesota snub at the last second really proves that fact.

The bottom line is the SEC and Pac 12 have cornered the market for the RPI and there is really nothing the OU's and Minnesota's of the world can do about it. We are in the wrong conference. In the mean time, teams like Georgia and Mizzou can lose their way into the NCAA because they are a member of the SEC and are guaranteed a high RPI.

Time for me to head to Norman for some Softball.
You say: "The bottom line is the SEC and Pac 12 have cornered the market for the RPI and there is really nothing the OU's and Minnesota's of the world can do about it. We are in the wrong conference". Absolutely!! And what Patty accomplishes with the Sooners is almost beyond belief given her burdens. We are in this situation because the SEC has busted its butt bettering its situation and the Pac 12 long been dominant in softball.

I get it you are driven by your opinion. But you want to disregard double digit wins against ranked teams because they are conference games. Do you want a discombobulated mess by seeding teams arbitrarily rather than wins and losses and SOS? I hope not! The ACC, B1G and Big 12 needs to roll their sleeves up and go to work getting better not ***** because the SEC and Pac 12 have already put forth that effort.

I am motivated by who wins on the field. I don't care why teams play quality games. I care that they play quality games. Opinions are subjective and for losers. Mine included. Victories and SOS are the facts that determine who advance. The system makes allowance for regular season location.

Post season location is awarded based on total season performance. Much better than giving the weak sisters the advantage free gratis.

The absence of transparency is a major major problem and should have been corrected years back. Pressure should continue to be applied to force question from the media and public to be answered. All system calculations used to assist in the ranking should be shown in its entirety. Allowances should be made for margin of victory. I am sure you could add a couple more.

But for certain more subjectivity is seeding selections is the wrong direction to proceed. Respecting Patty and awarding her a top 8 seed would be more subjectivity as she did not have enough quality wins to warrant the seeding.

Getting you, syb, inoref, Mac, Oliver Hardy, SoonerinNC, scrybe, tycat, MPS, Rbeam1, Sooner04, tooney and Romulus and myself to reach consensus would be a virtual impossibility. Getting administrators from the 295 schools ranked in the rpi to reach a consensus for changes would be 10 fold as difficult.

Easy to want to fix it but difficult to effect any change much less significant change. Ignore the results if you wish but for the last decade plus they confirms the present process is effective.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:47 AM   #2010
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Glad you're out, Spock. Your love affair with stats, even those that don't support your argument, is tiresome. And your insistence that we, as fans, are uneducated simply because we don't agree with you is arrogant and condescending.


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Old 05-18-2017, 11:58 AM   #2011
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Glad you're out, Spock. Your love affair with stats, even those that don't support your argument, is tiresome. And your insistence that we, as fans, are uneducated simply because we don't agree with you is arrogant and condescending.


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Ah another opinion. Would help if you knew how to interpret stats. If you don't like what I say try the ignore button. For certain the best argument you ever provide is well, I think.... That is not a enough. Again remember there is an ignore button out there.

P.S. Our opinions are probably of equal value. Nil. But I will continue to read yours and give mine. I like the subject matter (OU SB) and the dialog. Probably why I mostly agree though not entirely with Speedy. He know that of which he speaks.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:52 PM   #2012
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If you agree with Speedy, you're just admitting you're wrong.

And, no Spock, I'm not gonna put you on ignore. I enjoy your posts too much to do that. You're just so stubborn you refuse to admit when you're wrong. So continue to post and I'll continue to be entertained.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:30 PM   #2013
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I think the RPI is the problem, not the committee, if you are OU(Minnesota might disagree). I can't accept a system where late in the year we beat a team 2/3 games and they are higher than us in the RPI.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:03 PM   #2014
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Ah another opinion. Would help if you knew how to interpret stats. If you don't like what I say try the ignore button. For certain the best argument you ever provide is well, I think.... That is not a enough. Again remember there is an ignore button out there.

P.S. Our opinions are probably of equal value. Nil. But I will continue to read yours and give mine. I like the subject matter (OU SB) and the dialog. Probably why I mostly agree though not entirely with Speedy. He know that of which he speaks.
The truth is that the RPI formula collapses when you end up with similar schedules with about 50% dominant teams in a conference. It creates the SEC phenomena. The biggest problem for me is it does not reward the primary team for wins. If the formula was .5 winning percentage+ .25 pop win pct. + .25 win pct. 75% of your RPI should not be generated by other teams and teams with below .400 conference records have NO business in the post season in any sport. I don't care who they played. In college football, if you lose two games, you are done.

I will now tell you what you don't know about me which is that I have one degree from Oklahoma and two from Auburn. The Auburn AD Jay Jacobs and I were classmates. The guy who got Clint Myers to Auburn is a close friend of mine. He runs the Birmingham Thunderbolts travel team and his daughter made the last out in WCWS last year. That being said I am always for OU and I am always for Auburn unless they are playing OU. Seems to be happening regularly these days. I am also an SEC guy and I'm telling you the formula is BAD!!!

Geez, I had to drive through a hail storm this evening to get to Norman.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:06 AM   #2015
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To get off what has become the tedium of the RPI debate, you can watch OSU softball right now on ESPN3.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:37 AM   #2016
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Any word on how long the delay will be in Norman or if they will be able to get the games in at all today? OSU game is scoreless in the top of the 3rd.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:45 AM   #2017
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Any word on how long the delay will be in Norman or if they will be able to get the games in at all today? OSU game is scoreless in the top of the 3rd.
Saw a tweet that the Arky Tulsa game is starting at 12:34...so an hour delay for now.
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:29 AM   #2018
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if OU had won both games vs CAL poly they would be a top 6 seed ..

also OU softball stadium after the just announced renovation will be as nice as anyone's in the country
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:25 PM   #2019
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Arkansas up 3-2 in the top of 3. OSU wins 2-0.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:54 PM   #2020
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Looks like more rain heading towards Norman.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:14 PM   #2021
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Is the game weather-delayed? ESPN3 is holding a "your game is about to begin" screen on me?
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:31 PM   #2022
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Espn shows Tulsa ahead 4-3 in the bottom of the 6th so that may be why you are not getting the feed.

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/scoreboard
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:38 PM   #2023
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Espn shows Tulsa ahead 4-3 in the bottom of the 6th so that may be why you are not getting the feed.

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/scoreboard
Yep, that's probably the reason. Tulsa/Arkansas is being televised on the SEC feed, OU should start probably about 30 minutes after the conclusion of the Tulsa game. Thanks for the heads-up!
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:54 PM   #2024
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Arkansas homered to tie. Then, Tulsa homered to win, 5-4.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:18 PM   #2025
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Cal 6 Notre Dame 2 Final
Minnesota 11 Louisiana Tech 3 (5) run-ruled.
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