ouhoops.com
forums roster schedule stats rankings rpi bracketology big xII standings recruiting ouhoopstv

Go Back   OUHoops > Main Category > The Wayman Tisdale Men's Hoops Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-22-2019, 10:07 AM   #51
thebigabd
National Champion
 
thebigabd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,836
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

CMSooner,

Thats a healthy post. I am going to ponder on it and respond to some of your points, but I like it.
__________________
Lonnie Kruger = YES
thebigabd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 10:30 AM   #52
WaymanFan
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,815
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

I'm with CMSooner on finding middle ground. JUCO talent is obviously nowhere near what it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. To say we can't compete at a high level without JUCO talent seems farfetched. That said, Billy Tubbs started a tradition that Kelvin Sampson piggy-backed off - and we should have never gotten away from it completely. OU was once a "JUCO blue blood" and should be at least a consideration of any top-tier JUCO player. 30 years ago, when even the true Blue Blood programs wanted Larry Johnson from JUCO, I remember the direct quote from his coach. "It's Oklahoma or UNLV. Everyone else is wasting their time."

Since we always have one or two JUCO players on our team in a given year, anyway, we may as well try to get the best ones. The selling point? How about no college has had more JUCO players drafted into the NBA than Oklahoma (with the possible exception of UNLV).
WaymanFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 11:13 AM   #53
WTSooner
National Champion
 
WTSooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,687
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMSOONER View Post

I think we need to stop building up such high expectations of these JUCO kids.
I think we need to start finding (and recruiting) the JUCO kids that can live up to those expectations. They are out there. They are in this part of the country. Other schools are getting them and having success with them.

So far, Lon hasn't picked the right ones, or hasn't found out how to integrate them into the system effectively.
__________________
I hate to lose more than I like to win. - Larry Bird, 1998
WTSooner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 12:16 PM   #54
skyvue
Elite Eight
 
skyvue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 5,746
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTSooner View Post
Other schools are getting them and having success with them.
There are more failures than successes. Let's not pretend it's an exact science. One need only look at the players abd has touted to see that.
__________________
ďWhen most people say they are being 'realistic,' they delude themselves; they are simply being negative.Ē
óDr. Norman Vincent Peale
skyvue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 02:04 PM   #55
thebigabd
National Champion
 
thebigabd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,836
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

I wouldn't say expectations for them are high... even mine. As weird as that probably sounds.

Allow me to explain my position... if you agree, great. If you don't, fine.

I still openly support the recruitment of Jamal Bienemy, Brady Manek, Kristian Doolittle, etc... I would just add pieces between the best HS players I can get with junior college players instead. On my staff would be a full-time junior college recruiter, who would know the juco coaches, leagues, and players inside and out. If the juco guy is a premier piece, great, if its a role player, I think its even better its a juco player.

There are a few benefits to this... You only commit to role players for 2 years instead of 4... Your team gets older guys, bringing in 20/21 year olds instead of 18/19 year olds. There is a difference.

Last year having Bandoo and Jones is the difference between 19 and 24/25 wins. Those aren't hard guys to get. Especially if you position your program as the #1 destination for juco talent. Don't act like thats impossible either, we've already done that in the past.

If you think those days are gone.... Sampsons best player on a 30 win team this year was from San Jacinto JC in Texas. Before that he had the American player of the year in Rob Gray from a JC in Texas.

Look at what Bob Huggins has done with juco talent in the past few years:

Tarik Phillip - Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year. Got him from Independence CC in Kansas.
Jon Holton - Averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds per game
Jaysean Paige - Big 12 6th Man of the Year. Averaged 14 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.1 steals per game. Got him from Moberly CC in Kansas
Jermaine Hailey - Came in from a Odessa CC in Texas and averaged 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 4 assists per game in his last 10 games last year. Will see how he does next year, but he looks like a very promising player.

So Bob Huggins can fly into Kansas and Texas and magically pick good junior college talent but OU can't? He's had other good juco players too, these are just a few examples from the past couple of years.

He isn't some crap program either... Prior to this years down-year where they had to kick multiple starters off the team and lost their best player to injury, they had finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in the Big 12 the 4 years prior to that.

And he went back to the well this year in recruiting... Signed 2 6'4'' guards from junior college to compliment his McDonalds All-American power forward. So he clearly hasn't given up on it..

The defense of this is continually "how do you know he didn't recruit Mason Jones".... "How do you know they didn't even know about Haley?".... "How do we know Bandoo even wanted to come to OU"....

This is all just hogwash... First of all, offers are pretty openly reported. If OU offers someone its on like 5 different websites and twitter... So that is one thing... The other, OU just really isn't offering many of these guys. Just letting them go to Baylor, WVU, Houston, etc without an offer.

Second... the fact that these guys are going to Arkansas (who has had 3-4 SEC juco transfers just in the past few years), Baylor, TCU, WVU, and around the country without any OU offers tells me we have completely surrendered junior college recruiting to others and only dip into it at the 11th hour in desperation. However, we did sign Kuath and Williams and, I suspect fans will be happy with them next year.

Lastly.... my perfect recruiting class has my signing the best high school kids I can, while having a specific junior college recruiter identifying all the players who can help the team immediately win the next year. Shooters, slashers, rebounders, depth, etc... Immediate impact guys who fill the gaps in your roster. If that means 2-3 jucos per year, fine, so be it.

Hope that clarifies the position.
__________________
Lonnie Kruger = YES
thebigabd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 02:28 PM   #56
AdaSooner
Administrator
 
AdaSooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 14,162
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMSOONER View Post
I think we have to find some middle ground here. I appreciate the JUCO information that ABD brings to the board. I personally am not keeping up with any JUCO players unless something draws my attention to them. A lot times its something ABD has posted here. Do I agree that winning consistently at OU hinges on JUCO recruiting...no. Do I think we should abandon JUCO recruiting...no. JUCO just isn't what it used to be. Can you find players that can fill a need and be solid team contributors? Yes. Should OU be bringing in multiple JUCO players a year....absolutley not! (Barring some ridiculous scenario).

There are a lot of crazy high expectations for Alondes Williams next year, some that he might be a starter. The reality of a JUCO guard coming in and starting for this team paints a sad picture of the talent on the roster. A picture I believe to be false, as I think we have some really good talent. If he comes in and sets the world on fire....FANTASTIC! Win for the staff and the team. If he comes in and is a solid bench contributor... that's still a win! I like Williams, but will be better that JB, Harmon, Reaves, Hill?

JUCO is a stopgap to identify a "potential" talent that could address a 1-2 year more immediate need. Identifying a player who is or might be better than a late recruiting high school kid you might be able to bring in.

I think we need to stop building up such high expectations of these JUCO kids. I also think we need to realize there are JUCO kids out there who can help OU from time to time. JUCO to me is like the NBA G League. Some kids can look like stars but just not be major conference caliber players. That doesn't diminish their JUCO accomplishments. Sometimes you just don't know if a kids game can translate from JUCO to D1 until it does or doesn't happen. It's not their fault we sometimes set unattainable goals for them as players.
Nice post, CMSOONER! I have always been a proponent of signing juco players to fill specific needs. I realize a lot has changed since Billy and Kelvin were able to build a team around juco transfers, but there are still good recruits out there if coaches make the effort to identify and sign them. Our coaching staff did just that with Alondes Williams, a player I really like in our 2019 class. To me, thatís an encouraging step in the right direction.
AdaSooner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 02:41 PM   #57
WTSooner
National Champion
 
WTSooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,687
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyvue View Post
There are more failures than successes. Let's not pretend it's an exact science. One need only look at the players abd has touted to see that.
abd isn't a college coach with a recruiting budget and access to hours of video on these kids either. I get your point, but recruiting of any kid, JUCO or HS, is a hit and miss proposition. That shouldn't steer us away from JUCO kids.
__________________
I hate to lose more than I like to win. - Larry Bird, 1998
WTSooner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 03:08 PM   #58
Maverick008
Walk-on
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 178
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
Last year having Bandoo and Jones is the difference between 19 and 24/25 wins. Those aren't hard guys to get.
This is PURE speculation. Just like I can say IF they came to OU they both tripped and fell and had season ending injuries. Neither of us know if any of that is true. We also donít know and arenít privvy to the actual under workings of their recruitment. If they are so easy to come by, why didnít ďbetterĒ schools than Baylor and Arkansas sign these guys??

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
Jaysean Paige- Big 12 6th Man of the Year. Averaged 14 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.1 steals per game. Got him from Moberly CC in Kansas
Moberly CC is in Missouri not Kansas point still stands just wanted to clear that up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
And he went back to the well this year in recruiting... Signed 2 6'4'' guards from junior college to compliment his McDonalds All-American power forward. So he clearly hasn't given up on it..
Jury is still out on the guys he signed for next year as they could shoot less than 10% from 3/and or be busts like some of the others.

Iíve said it before but as someone else pointed out in this thread, itís not like Kruger hasnít or doesnít recruit JUCOs but more like he hasnít had great luck with the ones he has signed. YES a lot of that is on him and his staff but if you go back and look at some of the stats for some of those guys, they looked pretty good on paper. Does he need to hit on someone like the JUCO for next yearís class? Sure, but that doesnít mean they havenít/arenít recruiting JUCOs at all.
Maverick008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 03:17 PM   #59
WichitaSooner
All-Conference
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,508
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
I wouldn't say expectations for them are high... even mine. As weird as that probably sounds.

Allow me to explain my position... if you agree, great. If you don't, fine.

I still openly support the recruitment of Jamal Bienemy, Brady Manek, Kristian Doolittle, etc... I would just add pieces between the best HS players I can get with junior college players instead. On my staff would be a full-time junior college recruiter, who would know the juco coaches, leagues, and players inside and out. If the juco guy is a premier piece, great, if its a role player, I think its even better its a juco player.

There are a few benefits to this... You only commit to role players for 2 years instead of 4... Your team gets older guys, bringing in 20/21 year olds instead of 18/19 year olds. There is a difference.

Last year having Bandoo and Jones is the difference between 19 and 24/25 wins. Those aren't hard guys to get. Especially if you position your program as the #1 destination for juco talent. Don't act like thats impossible either, we've already done that in the past.

If you think those days are gone.... Sampsons best player on a 30 win team this year was from San Jacinto JC in Texas. Before that he had the American player of the year in Rob Gray from a JC in Texas.

Look at what Bob Huggins has done with juco talent in the past few years:

Tarik Phillip - Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year. Got him from Independence CC in Kansas.
Jon Holton - Averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds per game
Jaysean Paige - Big 12 6th Man of the Year. Averaged 14 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.1 steals per game. Got him from Moberly CC in Kansas
Jermaine Hailey - Came in from a Odessa CC in Texas and averaged 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 4 assists per game in his last 10 games last year. Will see how he does next year, but he looks like a very promising player.

So Bob Huggins can fly into Kansas and Texas and magically pick good junior college talent but OU can't? He's had other good juco players too, these are just a few examples from the past couple of years.

He isn't some crap program either... Prior to this years down-year where they had to kick multiple starters off the team and lost their best player to injury, they had finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in the Big 12 the 4 years prior to that.

And he went back to the well this year in recruiting... Signed 2 6'4'' guards from junior college to compliment his McDonalds All-American power forward. So he clearly hasn't given up on it..

The defense of this is continually "how do you know he didn't recruit Mason Jones".... "How do you know they didn't even know about Haley?".... "How do we know Bandoo even wanted to come to OU"....

This is all just hogwash... First of all, offers are pretty openly reported. If OU offers someone its on like 5 different websites and twitter... So that is one thing... The other, OU just really isn't offering many of these guys. Just letting them go to Baylor, WVU, Houston, etc without an offer.

Second... the fact that these guys are going to Arkansas (who has had 3-4 SEC juco transfers just in the past few years), Baylor, TCU, WVU, and around the country without any OU offers tells me we have completely surrendered junior college recruiting to others and only dip into it at the 11th hour in desperation. However, we did sign Kuath and Williams and, I suspect fans will be happy with them next year.

Lastly.... my perfect recruiting class has my signing the best high school kids I can, while having a specific junior college recruiter identifying all the players who can help the team immediately win the next year. Shooters, slashers, rebounders, depth, etc... Immediate impact guys who fill the gaps in your roster. If that means 2-3 jucos per year, fine, so be it.

Hope that clarifies the position.
I think the main problem I have with this is that you still significantly inflate the value that even the JUCO success stories possess. There is simply no way that Jones and Bandoo would have yielded us five or six extra wins. No chance. Every analytics expert on the planet would tell you how few players in the country are worth three wins, and those guys certainly don't fall in that very small group. But you keep saying it as if it is fact, like they are the college basketball WAR equivalents of Mike Trout. And of course, to add those two to our team would have meant removing two guys -- likely Calixte and Reynolds, both of whom were valuable (in some games, very valuable) during the nonconference season. So basically, Jones and Bandoo would have won us three or four extra Big 12 games each?!? Again, no chance.
WichitaSooner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 03:30 PM   #60
WTSooner
National Champion
 
WTSooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,687
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick008 View Post
Iíve said it before but as someone else pointed out in this thread, itís not like Kruger hasnít or doesnít recruit JUCOs but more like he hasnít had great luck with the ones he has signed. YES a lot of that is on him and his staff but if you go back and look at some of the stats for some of those guys, they looked pretty good on paper. Does he need to hit on someone like the JUCO for next yearís class? Sure, but that doesnít mean they havenít/arenít recruiting JUCOs at all.
I'm making this comment a bit off the cuff, but it seems to me that Kruger has gone after a lot of JUCO's just to have a warm body, or potentially an option of the bench. I'd like to see him go after more guys that might be good starter-level kids at OU. More kids like Williams this year.
__________________
I hate to lose more than I like to win. - Larry Bird, 1998
WTSooner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 03:54 PM   #61
thebigabd
National Champion
 
thebigabd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,836
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
I think the main problem I have with this is that you still significantly inflate the value that even the JUCO success stories possess. There is simply no way that Jones and Bandoo would have yielded us five or six extra wins. No chance. Every analytics expert on the planet would tell you how few players in the country are worth three wins, and those guys certainly don't fall in that very small group.
Quote:
This is PURE speculation. Just like I can say IF they came to OU they both tripped and fell and had season ending injuries. Neither of us know if any of that is true. We also don’t know and aren’t privvy to the actual under workings of their recruitment. If they are so easy to come by, why didn’t “better” schools than Baylor and Arkansas sign these guys??
Baylor and Arkansas are both good basketball programs, who regularly sign very good players. That is a silly point to make.

As to the wins.... Yea... Sub out Reynolds and Lazenby and put Jones and Bandoo on the roster, and you've got yourself a winning combo that easily gets you 5 more wins. That is basically unplugging two scrubby players with two very legit Big 12 players.

Mason Jones (6'5'' 210)
Played in all 34 games and started 26 … For the season, was second on the team in rebounding (3.9), assists (96) and steals (31) while ranking third in scoring (13.6) … Ranked sixth in SEC in 3-pointers made (76 total, ninth in free throw percentage (.804)and 10th in free throws made (115) … Came off the bench in the last eight games of the year to provide more balance … In those eight games, shot 46.5 percent (20-of-43) from 3-point range while handing out 20 assists … Reached double figures in scoring 20 times … Led the team in scoring 10 times.

Devonte Bandoo (6'3'' 185)
Averaged 10 ppg in Big 12 play, ranking 4th in the Big 12 in 3pt percentage at 44%... Shot 89% from the foul line.

I mean, these are highly skilled players... Playing their first season of D1 basketball. You remove two guys who did nothing for you and add these guys, not only does it make you immediately better this year, but these are guys who got better as the season wore on and are prepped to do better next year.

This is a crazy notion... That you can't add two very solid players and it wouldn't matter to the win total? I guess OU was as good as they were going to get and there was absolutely no way to get better? Because if upgrading talent and production, increasing shooting ability, athletic ability, etc doesn't result in more wins then what the hell does? That is why you recruit better players, to win more games. For you guys to say adding guys who did very well in the SEC and Big 12, especially for first year players, wouldn't have changed the outcome over having guys who literally gave you nothing, makes no sense. At all. In any world. I can't even believe you said it. I don't even know how to respond to it.

To be clear on this... Jones, in his first year of D1 basketball, had about as many assists as Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby COMBINED. He hit 115 free throws... Jamal Bienemy hit 14. He made 76 3's.. That would be #1 on OU's team last year. Reynolds hit 8 threes on the year... Jones hit 76. He hit more 3's than Calixte, Reynolds, Bienemy, Odomes, and Lazenby combined.

I mean, this is just ridiculous.
__________________
Lonnie Kruger = YES

Last edited by thebigabd; 04-22-2019 at 04:02 PM.
thebigabd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 04:34 PM   #62
Eielson
Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,460
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Tubbs and Sampson were great with JUCOs. Capel and Kruger have sucked with them, and the same goes for international players. Lon should stick to what he does best...and regardless of the tradition that Tubbs and Sampson set, it ain't JUCOs (or international players).
Eielson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 04:39 PM   #63
Eielson
Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,460
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
Baylor and Arkansas are both good basketball programs, who regularly sign very good players. That is a silly point to make.

As to the wins.... Yea... Sub out Reynolds and Lazenby and put Jones and Bandoo on the roster, and you've got yourself a winning combo that easily gets you 5 more wins. That is basically unplugging two scrubby players with two very legit Big 12 players.

Mason Jones (6'5'' 210)
Played in all 34 games and started 26 Ö For the season, was second on the team in rebounding (3.9), assists (96) and steals (31) while ranking third in scoring (13.6) Ö Ranked sixth in SEC in 3-pointers made (76 total, ninth in free throw percentage (.804)and 10th in free throws made (115) Ö Came off the bench in the last eight games of the year to provide more balance Ö In those eight games, shot 46.5 percent (20-of-43) from 3-point range while handing out 20 assists Ö Reached double figures in scoring 20 times Ö Led the team in scoring 10 times.

Devonte Bandoo (6'3'' 185)
Averaged 10 ppg in Big 12 play, ranking 4th in the Big 12 in 3pt percentage at 44%... Shot 89% from the foul line.

I mean, these are highly skilled players... Playing their first season of D1 basketball. You remove two guys who did nothing for you and add these guys, not only does it make you immediately better this year, but these are guys who got better as the season wore on and are prepped to do better next year.

This is a crazy notion... That you can't add two very solid players and it wouldn't matter to the win total? I guess OU was as good as they were going to get and there was absolutely no way to get better? Because if upgrading talent and production, increasing shooting ability, athletic ability, etc doesn't result in more wins then what the hell does? That is why you recruit better players, to win more games. For you guys to say adding guys who did very well in the SEC and Big 12, especially for first year players, wouldn't have changed the outcome over having guys who literally gave you nothing, makes no sense. At all. In any world. I can't even believe you said it. I don't even know how to respond to it.

To be clear on this... Jones, in his first year of D1 basketball, had about as many assists as Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby COMBINED. He hit 115 free throws... Jamal Bienemy hit 14. He made 76 3's.. That would be #1 on OU's team last year. Reynolds hit 8 threes on the year... Jones hit 76. He hit more 3's than Calixte, Reynolds, Bienemy, Odomes, and Lazenby combined.

I mean, this is just ridiculous.
We have this really good 3 point shooter coming in that I think you're going to like. His name is Austin Reaves.
Eielson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 04:55 PM   #64
Maverick008
Walk-on
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 178
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
Baylor and Arkansas are both good basketball programs, who regularly sign very good players. That is a silly point to make.
You kind of contradicted the point you make all the time. You make it sound like OU is head and shoulders above a lot of these programs and has their choice of JUCOs that they want as long as they recruit them and yet these guys went other places. Which is it? OU can pick who they want because they are head and shoulders above the rest or other good programs get good players as well if they recruit them? Not fighting, just asking

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
As to the wins.... Yea... Sub out Reynolds and Lazenby and put Jones and Bandoo on the roster, and you've got yourself a winning combo that easily gets you 5 more wins. That is basically unplugging two scrubby players with two very legit Big 12 players.
You canít seriously be making this sound like a legit argument?? I think we all agree that Jones and Bandoo would be taken over Reynolds and Lazenby probably 9/10 if not 10/10 times but you donít just get to pick 10+ guys that can play for every roster each year. Also, Lazenby was here two years ago so not really sure how you can make that point? Chase him off I guess? This is noted by a lot of programs out there honestly and if you do that too often, things like that add up in a negative way against your program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
I mean, these are highly skilled players... Playing their first season of D1 basketball. You remove two guys who did nothing for you and add these guys, not only does it make you immediately better this year, but these are guys who got better as the season wore on and are prepped to do better next year.
Before the season, the kid that went to Wichita St. was also a ďhighly skilled playerĒ, would he have added 2-3 wins as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
This is a crazy notion... That you can't add two very solid players and it wouldn't matter to the win total? I guess OU was as good as they were going to get and there was absolutely no way to get better? Because if upgrading talent and production, increasing shooting ability, athletic ability, etc doesn't result in more wins then what the hell does? That is why you recruit better players, to win more games. For you guys to say adding guys who did very well in the SEC and Big 12, especially for first year players, wouldn't have changed the outcome over having guys who literally gave you nothing, makes no sense. At all. In any world. I can't even believe you said it. I don't even know how to respond to it.
The point here is that you wouldnít be replacing guys that sit at the end or near the end of the bench. You would be replacing guys that helped you get to where you were this season. If you want to argue that they were better than guys in the top 7 then thatís a point worth making that is worth discussion. STOP making it sound like guys are for the pickiní for OU as long as they recruit them. We both know (at least I think we do) that it doesnít work that way and isnít that easy. For you to make it sound like it is, also makes no sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
To be clear on this... Jones, in his first year of D1 basketball, had about as many assists as Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby COMBINED. He hit 115 free throws... Jamal Bienemy hit 14. He made 76 3's.. That would be #1 on OU's team last year. Reynolds hit 8 threes on the year... Jones hit 76. He hit more 3's than Calixte, Reynolds, Bienemy, Odomes, and Lazenby combined.
To be clear on this, Jones did all of this for a team that didnít make the NCAA tournament, had their coach fired and would be blasted by everyone on this board for needing better players and better coaches had OUís season gone the same way. Instead, you want their fired coach and player they brought off the bench the last 8 games that you apparently discussed with Anderson about being a strategy to balance the team out more? Ok, noted

The last thing I will say about this is itís funny how you claim you want a good discussion but when someone makes a point against your claim all of the sudden their point of view is ridiculous and you canít believe it was said and you donít know how to respond to it because it doesnít go with your beliefs
Maverick008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 05:05 PM   #65
Maverick008
Walk-on
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 178
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTSooner View Post
I'm making this comment a bit off the cuff, but it seems to me that Kruger has gone after a lot of JUCO's just to have a warm body, or potentially an option of the bench. I'd like to see him go after more guys that might be good starter-level kids at OU. More kids like Williams this year.
I canít speak to Krugerís strategy but based on the talent that has been brought in it sort of looks that way. Not sure if he just felt he needed depth at those positions or that the guys that were starting in those roles just didnít progress as well as needed? Either way, I hope Williams does contribute more than the JUCO guys that have been brought in at this point. Although I do think that Kruger thought that the C (manyang) and PG (Strong 3rd team JUCO all american) would be starters with what OU had returning.
Maverick008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 05:15 PM   #66
WichitaSooner
All-Conference
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,508
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
Baylor and Arkansas are both good basketball programs, who regularly sign very good players. That is a silly point to make.

As to the wins.... Yea... Sub out Reynolds and Lazenby and put Jones and Bandoo on the roster, and you've got yourself a winning combo that easily gets you 5 more wins. That is basically unplugging two scrubby players with two very legit Big 12 players.

Mason Jones (6'5'' 210)
Played in all 34 games and started 26 Ö For the season, was second on the team in rebounding (3.9), assists (96) and steals (31) while ranking third in scoring (13.6) Ö Ranked sixth in SEC in 3-pointers made (76 total, ninth in free throw percentage (.804)and 10th in free throws made (115) Ö Came off the bench in the last eight games of the year to provide more balance Ö In those eight games, shot 46.5 percent (20-of-43) from 3-point range while handing out 20 assists Ö Reached double figures in scoring 20 times Ö Led the team in scoring 10 times.

Devonte Bandoo (6'3'' 185)
Averaged 10 ppg in Big 12 play, ranking 4th in the Big 12 in 3pt percentage at 44%... Shot 89% from the foul line.

I mean, these are highly skilled players... Playing their first season of D1 basketball. You remove two guys who did nothing for you and add these guys, not only does it make you immediately better this year, but these are guys who got better as the season wore on and are prepped to do better next year.

This is a crazy notion... That you can't add two very solid players and it wouldn't matter to the win total? I guess OU was as good as they were going to get and there was absolutely no way to get better? Because if upgrading talent and production, increasing shooting ability, athletic ability, etc doesn't result in more wins then what the hell does? That is why you recruit better players, to win more games. For you guys to say adding guys who did very well in the SEC and Big 12, especially for first year players, wouldn't have changed the outcome over having guys who literally gave you nothing, makes no sense. At all. In any world. I can't even believe you said it. I don't even know how to respond to it.

To be clear on this... Jones, in his first year of D1 basketball, had about as many assists as Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby COMBINED. He hit 115 free throws... Jamal Bienemy hit 14. He made 76 3's.. That would be #1 on OU's team last year. Reynolds hit 8 threes on the year... Jones hit 76. He hit more 3's than Calixte, Reynolds, Bienemy, Odomes, and Lazenby combined.

I mean, this is just ridiculous.
Ok you're right. Jones and Bandoo are two of the best college basketball players on the planet. They are basically Zion and Morant and would carry a team from 7 wins to 13 in the top conference in the country. All the people who quantify this for a living are clearly idiots fot not seeing this. And it'll be ridiculous if they both don't declare since players that impactful are easily top 10 picks.
WichitaSooner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 05:56 PM   #67
hoopsaustin
Elite Eight
 
hoopsaustin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: OKC
Posts: 5,719
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
Dead serious. By the way, Sampson is on record saying the exact same thing. Feel free to think Kelvin Sampsons opinion is ridiculous too.
Times have changed since then. Drastically
__________________

Manic Manek
hoopsaustin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 06:14 PM   #68
skyvue
Elite Eight
 
skyvue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 5,746
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

abd, as he is wont to do, has inflated the greatness of Bandoo. He was only marginally better than Reynolds. Here are the numbers:

Bandoo
Points per game 8.4
Rebounds per game 2.2
Assists per game 1.4
FG% 45.0

Reynolds
PPG 6.7
RPG 2.4
APG 1.1
FG% 41.1
__________________
ďWhen most people say they are being 'realistic,' they delude themselves; they are simply being negative.Ē
óDr. Norman Vincent Peale
skyvue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 06:25 PM   #69
sperry
All-American
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,818
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

I love how youíve cherrypicked a dude who wasnít even on your radar prior. Keeping in mind that neither are incredible players. Merely solid p5 rotation guys.

While I would take either of those guys on the roster, I can find 100 high school kids Iíd rather have and who would be here 4 years.

Jucos are garbage, and you cherry picking ones that werenít disasters is just laughable.
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 10:40 PM   #70
CMSOONER
Starter
 
CMSOONER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,292
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
I wouldn't say expectations for them are high... even mine. As weird as that probably sounds.

Allow me to explain my position... if you agree, great. If you don't, fine.

I still openly support the recruitment of Jamal Bienemy, Brady Manek, Kristian Doolittle, etc... I would just add pieces between the best HS players I can get with junior college players instead. On my staff would be a full-time junior college recruiter, who would know the juco coaches, leagues, and players inside and out. If the juco guy is a premier piece, great, if its a role player, I think its even better its a juco player.

There are a few benefits to this... You only commit to role players for 2 years instead of 4... Your team gets older guys, bringing in 20/21 year olds instead of 18/19 year olds. There is a difference.

Last year having Bandoo and Jones is the difference between 19 and 24/25 wins. Those aren't hard guys to get. Especially if you position your program as the #1 destination for juco talent. Don't act like thats impossible either, we've already done that in the past.

If you think those days are gone.... Sampsons best player on a 30 win team this year was from San Jacinto JC in Texas. Before that he had the American player of the year in Rob Gray from a JC in Texas.

Look at what Bob Huggins has done with juco talent in the past few years:

Tarik Phillip - Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year. Got him from Independence CC in Kansas.
Jon Holton - Averaged 9 points and 8 rebounds per game
Jaysean Paige - Big 12 6th Man of the Year. Averaged 14 points, 4.4 rebounds, and 2.1 steals per game. Got him from Moberly CC in Kansas
Jermaine Hailey - Came in from a Odessa CC in Texas and averaged 16 points, 7 rebounds, and 4 assists per game in his last 10 games last year. Will see how he does next year, but he looks like a very promising player.

So Bob Huggins can fly into Kansas and Texas and magically pick good junior college talent but OU can't? He's had other good juco players too, these are just a few examples from the past couple of years.

He isn't some crap program either... Prior to this years down-year where they had to kick multiple starters off the team and lost their best player to injury, they had finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in the Big 12 the 4 years prior to that.

And he went back to the well this year in recruiting... Signed 2 6'4'' guards from junior college to compliment his McDonalds All-American power forward. So he clearly hasn't given up on it..

The defense of this is continually "how do you know he didn't recruit Mason Jones".... "How do you know they didn't even know about Haley?".... "How do we know Bandoo even wanted to come to OU"....

This is all just hogwash... First of all, offers are pretty openly reported. If OU offers someone its on like 5 different websites and twitter... So that is one thing... The other, OU just really isn't offering many of these guys. Just letting them go to Baylor, WVU, Houston, etc without an offer.

Second... the fact that these guys are going to Arkansas (who has had 3-4 SEC juco transfers just in the past few years), Baylor, TCU, WVU, and around the country without any OU offers tells me we have completely surrendered junior college recruiting to others and only dip into it at the 11th hour in desperation. However, we did sign Kuath and Williams and, I suspect fans will be happy with them next year.

Lastly.... my perfect recruiting class has my signing the best high school kids I can, while having a specific junior college recruiter identifying all the players who can help the team immediately win the next year. Shooters, slashers, rebounders, depth, etc... Immediate impact guys who fill the gaps in your roster. If that means 2-3 jucos per year, fine, so be it.

Hope that clarifies the position.
For me, I don't know that Bandoo and Jones would have made a significant difference over Calixte and Reynolds. Could they have... sure they could've. Maybe they would have fit the system better or been in a little better situation to be more successful. I don't have any issue with preferring Bandoo/Jones over Calixte/Reynolds.

I do think the Capel staff was very poor at evaluating Juco Talent. I also think Lons staff has not done a great job in this area either. I think they did a better job this year with Williams and hopefully Kuath, but only time will tell.

One area Lon has had success in for the most part is with transfers. And I'm seeing what I expect is a shift in philosophy across the NCAA in focusing more on the transfer/grad transfer market than the JUCO market. I think to be successful you need to have a good foot into both of these areas. With Reaves becoming eligible and anticipating Williams and Kuath to be solid contributors, I think we'll see the fruits of Lon having success in both areas.
CMSOONER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 10:43 PM   #71
CMSOONER
Starter
 
CMSOONER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,292
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdaSooner View Post
I have always been a proponent of signing juco players to fill specific needs. I realize a lot has changed since Billy and Kelvin were able to build a team around juco transfers, but there are still good recruits out there if coaches make the effort to identify and sign them. Our coaching staff did just that with Alondes Williams, a player I really like in our 2019 class. To me, thatís an encouraging step in the right direction.
Absolutely!
CMSOONER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2019, 09:13 AM   #72
thebigabd
National Champion
 
thebigabd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 10,836
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

I will respond to this stuff... but doesn't sound like either side is willing to budge.

Quote:
You kind of contradicted the point you make all the time. You make it sound like OU is head and shoulders above a lot of these programs and has their choice of JUCOs that they want as long as they recruit them and yet these guys went other places. Which is it? OU can pick who they want because they are head and shoulders above the rest or other good programs get good players as well if they recruit them? Not fighting, just asking
I don't understand your point here... OU didn't offer Bandoo or Jones a scholarship. OU would have been their best offer. That means OU has a better than good chance to get them in most cases.

Quote:
You canít seriously be making this sound like a legit argument?? I think we all agree that Jones and Bandoo would be taken over Reynolds and Lazenby probably 9/10 if not 10/10 times but you donít just get to pick 10+ guys that can play for every roster each year. Also, Lazenby was here two years ago so not really sure how you can make that point? Chase him off I guess? This is noted by a lot of programs out there honestly and if you do that too often, things like that add up in a negative way against your program.
Mason Jones would have been the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team last year. Not the 10th spot.

Quote:
abd, as he is wont to do, has inflated the greatness of Bandoo. He was only marginally better than Reynolds. Here are the numbers:

Bandoo
Points per game 8.4
Rebounds per game 2.2
Assists per game 1.4
FG% 45.0

Reynolds
PPG 6.7
RPG 2.4
APG 1.1
FG% 41.1
That is completely disingenuous and you know it. You are too smart for this... Reynolds has been playing college basketball for 5 years and once conference play hit he was practically unplayable. Averaged 4 ppg on 6% 3pt shooting and 52% free throw shooting... Bandoo was in his first year of college basketball and actually got better, averaging 10ppg in conference play on 44% shooting and 89% foul shooting.

Quote:
Before the season, the kid that went to Wichita St. was also a ďhighly skilled playerĒ, would he have added 2-3 wins as well?
Red Herring.

Quote:
The last thing I will say about this is itís funny how you claim you want a good discussion but when someone makes a point against your claim all of the sudden their point of view is ridiculous and you canít believe it was said and you donít know how to respond to it because it doesnít go with your beliefs
I do want a good discussion... but it has to be within the realm of logic and reason, doesn't it? I mean... The guys on this forum are saying adding a player who, in his first year of college basketball, was better than Odomes, Reynolds, Lazenby, Calixte, Bienemy, etc wouldn't change the win total. Jones as a sophomore is comparable to James, OU's best guard, as a senior. James is better on the boards, Jones is better passing the ball.

Then on top of that, they are saying that in addition to Jones... adding Bandoo in place of Reynolds who averaged 10ppg and was the 4th best shooter in the conference (Reynolds was a 6% 3pt shooter) wouldn't change the win total.

Quote:
We have this really good 3 point shooter coming in that I think you're going to like. His name is Austin Reaves.
Sounds great to me.

Quote:
Ok you're right. Jones and Bandoo are two of the best college basketball players on the planet. They are basically Zion and Morant and would carry a team from 7 wins to 13 in the top conference in the country. All the people who quantify this for a living are clearly idiots fot not seeing this. And it'll be ridiculous if they both don't declare since players that impactful are easily top 10 picks.
That is not what is being discussed... What is being discussed is OU didn't offer Bandoo and Jones... Jones being in Oklahoma... and instead offered players who are CONSIDERABLY worse than Jones.

In my original response to CMSooner I said my expectations aren't that great of them... I am saying that getting the better jucos in the area is preferable to the role players OU gets now. I have proved that time and again.

Mason Jones was more productive than Odomes, Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby combined. You can't say he wouldn't have adjusted the win total.

If OU returned the same team next year, except we add Reaves and Harmon... And Reaves is identical to Bandoos impact and Harmon is identical Jones impact... Are you saying the team doesn't win 4-5 more games?
__________________
Lonnie Kruger = YES
thebigabd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2019, 09:34 AM   #73
WichitaSooner
All-Conference
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,508
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
I will respond to this stuff... but doesn't sound like either side is willing to budge.



I don't understand your point here... OU didn't offer Bandoo or Jones a scholarship. OU would have been their best offer. That means OU has a better than good chance to get them in most cases.



Mason Jones would have been the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team last year. Not the 10th spot.



That is completely disingenuous and you know it. You are too smart for this... Reynolds has been playing college basketball for 5 years and once conference play hit he was practically unplayable. Averaged 4 ppg on 6% 3pt shooting and 52% free throw shooting... Bandoo was in his first year of college basketball and actually got better, averaging 10ppg in conference play on 44% shooting and 89% foul shooting.



Red Herring.



I do want a good discussion... but it has to be within the realm of logic and reason, doesn't it? I mean... The guys on this forum are saying adding a player who, in his first year of college basketball, was better than Odomes, Reynolds, Lazenby, Calixte, Bienemy, etc wouldn't change the win total. Jones as a sophomore is comparable to James, OU's best guard, as a senior. James is better on the boards, Jones is better passing the ball.

Then on top of that, they are saying that in addition to Jones... adding Bandoo in place of Reynolds who averaged 10ppg and was the 4th best shooter in the conference (Reynolds was a 6% 3pt shooter) wouldn't change the win total.



Sounds great to me.



That is not what is being discussed... What is being discussed is OU didn't offer Bandoo and Jones... Jones being in Oklahoma... and instead offered players who are CONSIDERABLY worse than Jones.

In my original response to CMSooner I said my expectations aren't that great of them... I am saying that getting the better jucos in the area is preferable to the role players OU gets now. I have proved that time and again.

Mason Jones was more productive than Odomes, Calixte, Reynolds, and Lazenby combined. You can't say he wouldn't have adjusted the win total.

If OU returned the same team next year, except we add Reaves and Harmon... And Reaves is identical to Bandoos impact and Harmon is identical Jones impact... Are you saying the team doesn't win 4-5 more games?
I'll address the point specific to my post. One, I think Reaves and Harmon are a much better combination than Bandoo and Jones. Two, I also expect our three best returning players to improve their games. Combine those factors with the additions of other players like Williams and Hill and Victor, and I absolutely expect us to win more games next year. And notice that I never said that there is no chance that Bandoo and Jones wouldn't have potentially added to our win total. Is it possible we would have won an extra game somewhere in conference play? Sure. But 5-6? Again, no way.
WichitaSooner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2019, 09:41 AM   #74
Maverick008
Walk-on
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 178
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
I don't understand your point here... OU didn't offer Bandoo or Jones a scholarship. OU would have been their best offer. That means OU has a better than good chance to get them in most cases.
It doesnít always work that way. Not all kids think ďwell thatís by far the best place for me because they are the best team....Ē when choosing a place to go play. You are smarter than that as well. You pointed that out in another thread in regards to reasons for transferring. The same mindset goes into it for players when being recruited. How much playing time is there/The style they play/will they be the main scoring threat or is it divided/the coaching style/etc. Itís not all based on ďis OU the best team/school on this list?Ē. ALL of those things and more go into where they decide to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
I do want a good discussion... but it has to be within the realm of logic and reason, doesn't it? I mean... The guys on this forum are saying adding a player who, in his first year of college basketball, was better than Odomes, Reynolds, Lazenby, Calixte, Bienemy, etc wouldn't change the win total. Jones as a sophomore is comparable to James, OU's best guard, as a senior. James is better on the boards, Jones is better passing the ball.

Then on top of that, they are saying that in addition to Jones... adding Bandoo in place of Reynolds who averaged 10ppg and was the 4th best shooter in the conference (Reynolds was a 6% 3pt shooter) wouldn't change the win total.
First off, Iím not ďthe guys on this forumĒ and I already addressed this by saying that what you are claiming isnít what would realistically happen. IF Jones was coming in for the guys you mentioned earlier which in that case the BEST guy on the list was Reynolds, then sure, OU is better based on what we now know about last year. BUT thatís not the guy he would have been competing with minutes wise. You just said it yourself that he is ALL but a James clone and if you are the coach and I tell you that you get player A or player B for that role and I tell you itís a Sr. That has been in your program for 4 years or a Juco transfer with zero NCAA DI experience there is NO WAY you choose to go with the Juco transfer. If Jones came to OU last year than could he have taken Odomes spot? Thatís possible I guess and does it make OU better? On offense, most likely but how was/is his defense compared to Odomes? What ifís can be played a lot of ways obviously. BUT I would think you would have to admit that SOMETHING with the kid is up if Anderson chose to have him come off the bench the last 8 games if he was THAT much of a scoring threat? Attitude issues? Defensive issues? Not a team guy? Who knows. But you canít sit there and argue that it was strictly for ďbalance of offenseĒ lol. This isnít the NBA where you need two good squads for an 82 game schedule. MOST of the top players in college average 30+ mins a game if they are that good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
If OU returned the same team next year, except we add Reaves and Harmon... And Reaves is identical to Bandoos impact and Harmon is identical Jones impact... Are you saying the team doesn't win 4-5 more games?
Whatís the point of this? IF Blake had returned to OU for his JR season could OU have won.....not worth finishing or discussing cause itís not going to happen lol Also, have you thought that IF OU recruited Jones they wouldnít have gotten Reaves for next year? Maybe it was OU/Krugerís choice/preference to have Reaves and not mess that up by bringing in another guy at the same position?
Maverick008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2019, 10:00 AM   #75
sperry
All-American
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,818
Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

BigABD still not addressing the fact that he threw out 4 JUCO guys that OU was "negligent" in not recruiting.

Three of them were the typical fringe D1 player that comes out of JUCO these days.


Did you ever consider that JUCO competition is so bad that it's really hard to identify the small handful of players that can actually play at the next level, and that maybe Lon would rather take much higher percentage shots on grad transfers or high school kids?


Also funny is it's not like these are elite players. Jones and Bandoo are solid players. They could absolutely be good contributors here, maybe even start. But they don't move the needle, and the overwhelming majority of JUCOs end up like your boys Torres, Trice and Virecuvic: end of the bench guys wasting a scholarship.
sperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Hosted By: URLJet.com