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Old 05-15-2018, 09:28 AM   #26
hoopsaustin
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
I would like to point out that Maine has averaged about 9 wins per year over the past 20 seasons... They are a garbage program... and in Calixtes time there they won a total of 24 games in 4 years. That is 6 games per year.

They played Texas Tech this season... they lost by 40 and Calixte had 5 points in 25 minutes.

I would bet some money that Ricky Torres significantly outperforms him this year, and of course WSU will have him for 2 seasons. I mean, we will have to see how they perform on the court... but Calixte played for a horrendous team...

Torres is 6'3''... averaged 17 points and 8 assists per game... He shoots 44% from the 3pt line... He had 268 assists last season. That is a crazy number.

They'll go to Maine for a 5'10'' point guard on a 1 year rental but wont go 5 hours to Missouri for Ricky Torres... This is the same thing we were talking about in the other thread. They will go to 7600 miles to New Zealand for Matt Freeman but didnt throw the kitchen sink at Shakur Juiston who was 3 hours away...

You can't defend that... its pure lunacy.
Your whole flaw in all of this is that you have no idea if the staff did or didn't reach out to him or any of these jucos.. it's not like recruiting in a video game where if you put in the time, any recruit will like you and talk to you... some kids simply wont wanna even consider OU despite how much time you put into them..

Just because someone lives in the geographical area does not make that person 100% of the time likely to want to go to OU if our coaches send them a twitter message.
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:00 AM   #27
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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Your whole flaw in all of this is that you have no idea if the staff did or didn't reach out to him or any of these jucos.. it's not like recruiting in a video game where if you put in the time, any recruit will like you and talk to you... some kids simply wont wanna even consider OU despite how much time you put into them..

Just because someone lives in the geographical area does not make that person 100% of the time likely to want to go to OU if our coaches send them a twitter message.
I wouldn't say it is a flaw... I would say it is a belief. If they wanted some of these guys they would have come on visits... These guys arent going to UNLV, TCU, ISU, Arkansas, Houston, etc because they think its way better than OU. They are going to these places because they were in on their recruiting longer. OU would easily be the best program targeting them, and they would jump on offers early. They did before, and they would do it again.

OU is a top 25 program... and the former coaching staffs had great relationships with local junior colleges. I have to believe that if OU jumps on these guys in the early signing period, with proper scouting and relationships, it should be a front-runner for many of them. Are you going to land 100%? No, that isn't realistic. But I would bet some money OU is the best program recruiting these area juco guys in the early period.

And.... you don't think proximity matters?

Taj Gray was 1 hour away in Oklahoma
Corey Brewer was 3 hours away at Carl Albert
Terrell Everett was 6 hours away in Missouri
Quannas White as 6 hours away in Texas
Nolan Johnson was 4.5 hours away in Texas
Mike Neal was 4 hours away in Texas
Ebi Ere was 4 hours away in Kansas
Kelley Newton was 4 hours away in Kansas

It's not a coincidence these guys are all right here... they still are.

Sampson found these guys.... and, over the past several years in the modern era... if Capel or Kruger had the scouting and relationships, that list of players who came and did great at OU could have included Loal Acuil, Shakur Juiston, Rob Gray, Vladimir Broadziasnky, Donovan Jackson, Corey Davis, Daryl Macon, and many others...

They were there... same as the guys who actually came to OU before Sampson left. Difference was, Sampson was signing these guys. He knew where they were. Lots of these guys didn't go on to the NBA.. but damn they were great college players at OU...They got on the court, they had an impact, they were double figure scores, etc... They weren't out of their league, they weren't unable to even get on the court like a lot of these guys Kruger and Capel brought in.

I actually just googled this a few minutes ago... pretty interesting from back in 2002... In this article he talks about this, he didn't intend for Oklahoma to get these guys or rely on them, but he had to... and just like Tubbs, he learned.... Its prime hunting ground. Arguably the two best coaches in the history of the program knew this... He is basically saying you can't have a high school dominant program at OU. He even wanted a 50-50 ratio.

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Sampson said he would prefer a 50-50 proposition with junior college transfers and high school recruits.

"I'd like a balance," Sampson said. "But this area is prime hunting ground for junior college players. For you to come in here and make this a high school-dominant program, you're missing out on a valuable resource.
http://newsok.com/article/2786353
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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I wouldn't say it is a flaw... I would say it is a belief. If they wanted some of these guys they would have come on visits... These guys arent going to UNLV, TCU, ISU, Arkansas, Houston, etc because they think its way better than OU. They are going to these places because they were in on their recruiting longer. OU would easily be the best program targeting them, and they would jump on offers early. They did before, and they would do it again.

OU is a top 25 program... and the former coaching staffs had great relationships with local junior colleges. I have to believe that if OU jumps on these guys in the early signing period, with proper scouting and relationships, it should be a front-runner for many of them. Are you going to land 100%? No, that isn't realistic. But I would bet some money OU is the best program recruiting these area juco guys in the early period.

And.... you don't think proximity matters?

Taj Gray was 1 hour away in Oklahoma
Corey Brewer was 3 hours away at Carl Albert
Terrell Everett was 6 hours away in Missouri
Quannas White as 6 hours away in Texas
Nolan Johnson was 4.5 hours away in Texas
Mike Neal was 4 hours away in Texas
Ebi Ere was 4 hours away in Kansas
Kelley Newton was 4 hours away in Kansas

It's not a coincidence these guys are all right here... they still are.

Sampson found these guys.... and, over the past several years in the modern era... if Capel or Kruger had the scouting and relationships, that list of players who came and did great at OU could have included Loal Acuil, Shakur Juiston, Rob Gray, Vladimir Broadziasnky, Donovan Jackson, Corey Davis, Daryl Macon, and many others...

They were there... same as the guys who actually came to OU before Sampson left. Difference was, Sampson was signing these guys. He knew where they were. Lots of these guys didn't go on to the NBA.. but damn they were great college players at OU...They got on the court, they had an impact, they were double figure scores, etc... They weren't out of their league, they weren't unable to even get on the court like a lot of these guys Kruger and Capel brought in.

I actually just googled this a few minutes ago... pretty interesting from back in 2002... In this article he talks about this, he didn't intend for Oklahoma to get these guys or rely on them, but he had to... and just like Tubbs, he learned.... Its prime hunting ground. Arguably the two best coaches in the history of the program knew this... He is basically saying you can't have a high school dominant program at OU. He even wanted a 50-50 ratio.



http://newsok.com/article/2786353
Those were different times and Sampson had plenty of non contributors.. and I'm a waay bigger sampson guy then kruger. (I want kruger gone now.) But you're all argument is just hindsight. It's like when espn says who the Cleveland browns COULD have drafted.. who cares, they didn't.

You prolly were all pumped for omar leary too lol
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:26 PM   #29
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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I would like to point out that Maine has averaged about 9 wins per year over the past 20 seasons... They are a garbage program... and in Calixtes time there they won a total of 24 games in 4 years. That is 6 games per year.

They played Texas Tech this season... they lost by 40 and Calixte had 5 points in 25 minutes.

I would bet some money that Ricky Torres significantly outperforms him this year, and of course WSU will have him for 2 seasons. I mean, we will have to see how they perform on the court... but Calixte played for a horrendous team...

Torres is 6'3''... averaged 17 points and 8 assists per game... He shoots 44% from the 3pt line... He had 268 assists last season. That is a crazy number.

They'll go to Maine for a 5'10'' point guard on a 1 year rental but wont go 5 hours to Missouri for Ricky Torres... This is the same thing we were talking about in the other thread. They will go to 7600 miles to New Zealand for Matt Freeman but didnt throw the kitchen sink at Shakur Juiston who was 3 hours away...

You can't defend that... its pure lunacy.
Here's how to defend it. Calixte played D1 basketball and Torres didn't. You refuse to acknowledge this but JUCO basketball, for the most part today, is horrible. It's garbage. There are a few diamonds in the rough and maybe Torres is one of them, but Calixte has been playing against much better competition the last 2 years than Torres has. It's not close.

Oh, and that doesn't even count the fact that OU has a legitimately excellent PG coming to school in a year and may not have been able to recruit a 2 year PG (especially one who would need most of the season to adjust to D1 basketball) with him coming in.

You may not agree with the decision, as of course you won't since it involves OU passing on 1 of your JUCO gems, but a difference in opinion or philosophy doesn't necessarily make OU's coaches lunatics.

It's amazing to me how many OU (supposed) fans' 1st reaction is to condemn the coaches and their philosophy rather than attempting to see things objectively from their standpoint.
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Old 05-15-2018, 08:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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I would like to point out that Maine has averaged about 9 wins per year over the past 20 seasons... They are a garbage program... and in Calixtes time there they won a total of 24 games in 4 years. That is 6 games per year.

They played Texas Tech this season... they lost by 40 and Calixte had 5 points in 25 minutes.

I would bet some money that Ricky Torres significantly outperforms him this year, and of course WSU will have him for 2 seasons. I mean, we will have to see how they perform on the court... but Calixte played for a horrendous team...

Torres is 6'3''... averaged 17 points and 8 assists per game... He shoots 44% from the 3pt line... He had 268 assists last season. That is a crazy number.

They'll go to Maine for a 5'10'' point guard on a 1 year rental but wont go 5 hours to Missouri for Ricky Torres... This is the same thing we were talking about in the other thread. They will go to 7600 miles to New Zealand for Matt Freeman but didnt throw the kitchen sink at Shakur Juiston who was 3 hours away...

You can't defend that... its pure lunacy.
Your fascination with JUCO ball is lunacy. Once again, I'll take a guy who has proven he can play at the D-I level over one who has not.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:03 AM   #31
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Calixte had offers from Florida State, Missouri, Gulf Coast, DePaul and Arizona among others. They saw something positive in him. Torres turned down offers from SMU, South Florida, Auburn, and Virginia Tech.

Take your pick.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:59 AM   #32
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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Your fascination with JUCO ball is lunacy. Once again, I'll take a guy who has proven he can play at the D-I level over one who has not.
Bingo. Plus OU already has a JUCO commit in Kuath, so to say OU never goes after JUCOs is wrong.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:31 AM   #33
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Yikes... Iím sure Lon and staff watched these guys play as they do a lot of players . Iíve seen Lon at the state tournament (5A-6A ) a number of times but no offers to some of the kid she playing . So unless Abd knows more than Lon Iíll side with him on the evaluation.
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:13 PM   #34
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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Those were different times
Disagree. Still available. I can prove it year after year.

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Your fascination with JUCO ball is lunacy. Once again, I'll take a guy who has proven he can play at the D-I level over one who has not.
Bad logic... thats like saying you shouldn't take high school players because they haven't proven themselves at the D1 level. If our D1 transfers were guys from the upper echelon, I'd speak differently. But average at best guys who are 22/23 years old from Maine and Pacific? Ehhhhh...

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Bingo. Plus OU already has a JUCO commit in Kuath, so to say OU never goes after JUCOs is wrong.
I applaud them for taking Kuath... OU typically takes jucos as a last resort and you end up with Lazenby, Leary, Nick Thompson, etc. Also, the Texas/Kansas/Iowa/Florida jucos are significantly better than anywhere else.

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Here's how to defend it. Calixte played D1 basketball and Torres didn't.
Bad logic, described above. Torres is 6'3'', a better shooter, a better athlete, a better passer, and hasn't already peaked. Calixte is 5'10'' and didnt play well against high level competition, and he played for a team that won 20 games in his whole career.

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You refuse to acknowledge this but JUCO basketball, for the most part today, is horrible. It's garbage. There are a few diamonds in the rough and maybe Torres is one of them, but Calixte has been playing against much better competition the last 2 years than Torres has. It's not close.
Then why, in the modern era, are juco transfers still making all-conference teams in the area? As Kelvin stated, this particular area is a gold-mine for it. They made up 20% of the all-conference selections in the Big 12 this year.

I'll wager something that Devonte Bandoo and Darius Allen at Baylor end up better than Calixte and Reynolds at OU, and significantly better.. And they get them for 2 seasons.

You definitely can't just look at the stats... you have to look at the league, how many other D1 players are on the team, athletic ability, etc. Lots of juco stat stuffers arent any good.

By the way... speaking of juco being garbage.. several of these programs send players to high level D1 every year. That is very rare for a high school to do that. Many high schools go years without sending ANY players to D1 basketball, and lots of these jucos like Indian Hills and Hutchinson and Chipola send multiple guys to high level D1 regularly. So I don't think that's entirely fair.

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You may not agree with the decision, as of course you won't since it involves OU passing on 1 of your JUCO gems, but a difference in opinion or philosophy doesn't necessarily make OU's coaches lunatics.
They can do whatever they want... and I am free to question their tactics. These are the guys who make millions of dollars per year and flew 7500 miles for Matt Freeman but didnt seriously consider high level players right in their backyard, from the SAME schools in Kansas, Texas, etc that OU has recruited very well in the past.

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It's amazing to me how many OU (supposed) fans' 1st reaction is to condemn the coaches and their philosophy rather than attempting to see things objectively from their standpoint.
People in leadership positions do dumb things all the time... If they want to ignore OU basketball history and what has led to consistent success over the years, that is fine. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the team didnt suck last year (and they sucked and you know it), and if they didnt win 9 games or whatever the year before. But they did, and so we are.

Same thing with Capel... he tried to recruit a certain way, and a local talent bailed him out, and he had horrible seasons with very questionable recruiting decisions and got fired. Lon is one bad season away next year from being fired. Cold hard facts. He needs the Maine and Pacific guys to be shockingly good, and Doolittle to be legit.

The roster is a total mess but at least they can field a team next year... We got a guy from Maine that is allowing us to field a complete team next year... think about that for a second.
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Old 04-21-2019, 07:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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I would bet some money that Ricky Torres significantly outperforms him this year... Torres is 6'3''... averaged 17 points and 8 assists per game... He shoots 44% from the 3pt line... He had 268 assists last season. That is a crazy number.
You know what's a crazy number? Shooting .089 from three--not for a single game but for an entire season. That's what Torres did at WSU this year. Maybe as a senior, he'll climb above the Mendoza line.

It's a good thing for you that no one took you up on that bet, since Calixte outperformed Torres in almost every category. The only category in which Torres was significantly better was turnovers (not a surprise for those of us who watched Calixte this season, but in his defense, Calixte was facing better competition).

You trashed Calixte relentlessly in this thread before he'd even arrived in Norman, and while I'm not saying he had a great season, he was certainly better than the juco you were praising to the skies.

Torres
average minutes 15.2
pts per minute .153
pts per game 2.3
FG % .346
3pt % .089
FT % .667
rebounds per game/minute 1.8/.12
assists per game/minute 2.4/.16
turnovers per game/minute 1/.06
steals per minute .4/.03

Calixte
average minutes 21.1
pts per minute .312
pts per game 6.6
FG % 395
3pt % .337
FT % .762
rebounds per game/minute 1.8/.08
assists per game/minute 2.1/.097
turnovers per game/minute 1.8/.09
steals per game/minute .4/.02
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Old 04-22-2019, 06:30 AM   #36
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Torres had an insanely bad season... I mean, the guy had an offer from Auburn who nearly made the championship game.

Just a dud... Plus, I've addressed this many times... I'm not a scout. I took some bait because people didn't like that I took people from the area and then blasted the staff after they turned out to be good, so I picked some guys from the area that seemed like safe bets.

It's interesting that you, in every thread, come after me for plays but fully excuse the staff who actually recruits guys who can't play, misses local targets consistently, and are paid coaches and scouts.

In other words.... Torres or whoever flaking out don't change the equation.

Lon makes millions of dollars to not bring in Lazenby. I didn't get paid anything to bring in Torres.
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Old 04-22-2019, 06:36 AM   #37
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Torres had an insanely bad season... I mean, the guy had an offer from Auburn who nearly made the championship game.

Just a dud... Plus, I've addressed this many times... I'm not a scout. I took some bait because people didn't like that I took people from the area and then blasted the staff after they turned out to be good, so I picked some guys from the area that seemed like safe bets.

It's interesting that you, in every thread, come after me for plays but fully excuse the staff who actually recruits guys who can't play, misses local targets consistently, and are paid coaches and scouts.

In other words.... Torres or whoever flaking out don't change the equation.

Lon makes millions of dollars to not bring in Lazenby. I didn't get paid anything to bring in Torres.
Come on... Just say " I was Wrong"

Lazenby was brought in for depth only. transfers, quitters etc put us in a bind.
Your JUCO's that you pluck out of a hat arent as a good as you think. Its ok to say that aloud.
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Old 04-22-2019, 07:37 AM   #38
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Come on... Just say " I was Wrong"

Lazenby was brought in for depth only. transfers, quitters etc put us in a bind.
Your JUCO's that you pluck out of a hat arent as a good as you think. Its ok to say that aloud.
Clearly I was wrong about Torres, I thought that went without saying... just like many on this forum clamor on about guys like Odomes, Crocker, McNease, etc playing in the NBA.

Doesn't change the equation. OU will never be consistently good without bringing in the best juco talent. This was true under Billy and Kelvin, and Capel/Kruger have only proven it over time. Nothing has happened to make that change for me.
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Old 04-22-2019, 07:45 AM   #39
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Clearly I was wrong about Torres, I thought that went without saying... just like many on this forum clamor on about guys like Odomes, Crocker, McNease, etc playing in the NBA.

Doesn't change the equation. OU will never be consistently good without bringing in the best juco talent. This was true under Billy and Kelvin, and Capel/Kruger have only proven it over time. Nothing has happened to make that change for me.
Youre serious?

Please say youre kidding...
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:11 AM   #40
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Youre serious?

Please say youre kidding...
Dead serious. By the way, Sampson is on record saying the exact same thing. Feel free to think Kelvin Sampsons opinion is ridiculous too.
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:14 AM   #41
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Dead serious. By the way, Sampson is on record saying the exact same thing. Feel free to think Kelvin Sampsons opinion is ridiculous too.
OU can win consistently without Any JUCO's. ANY...
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:17 AM   #42
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OU can win consistently without Any JUCO's. ANY...
Ok, thats fine. You disagree on how to win consistently at OU with Kelvin Sampson. That is totally fine. I happen to agree with him. I assume that me and Kelvin sharing that opinion is fine as well? Are you ok with that?
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:19 AM   #43
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Ok, thats fine. You disagree on how to win consistently at OU with Kelvin Sampson. That is totally fine. I happen to agree with him. I assume that me and Kelvin sharing that opinion is fine as well? Are you ok with that?
Yeah Im ok with that.

Which JUCO's are next years cant misses?
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:35 AM   #44
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Ok, thats fine. You disagree on how to win consistently at OU with Kelvin Sampson. That is totally fine. I happen to agree with him. I assume that me and Kelvin sharing that opinion is fine as well? Are you ok with that?
Yeah. A quarter of a century ago the JUCO model worked well!
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:35 AM   #45
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Yeah Im ok with that.

Which JUCO's are next years cant misses?
Don't know. I am not a D1 head coach with recruiting connections that gets paid to go evaluate talent and watch these guys play.

Last year it ended up being Mason Jones and Devonte Bandoo... They went to Arkansas and Baylor. Mason Jones was in Oklahoma and apparently Kruger didn't even know he existed.

There are some players in mind like Taz Sherman, going to WVU, and a couple of others in the area that seemed legit that could help you win next year went un-offered.
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:37 AM   #46
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Ok, thats fine. You disagree on how to win consistently at OU with Kelvin Sampson. That is totally fine. I happen to agree with him. I assume that me and Kelvin sharing that opinion is fine as well? Are you ok with that?
When did Kelvin say that? 15 years ago.


The 4 guys you cited in your original post featured 1 one solid but not spectacular player (Bandoo), and three flat out bums. OU signing any of them except Bandoo would have been a disaster. That's a 25% hit rate for the guys you identified as the best in JUCO. That's why relying on JUCOs is a laughably bad "strategy"
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:38 AM   #47
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Don't know. I am not a D1 head coach
Logs out...
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:00 AM   #48
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When did Kelvin say that? 15 years ago.


The 4 guys you cited in your original post featured 1 one solid but not spectacular player (Bandoo), and three flat out bums. OU signing any of them except Bandoo would have been a disaster. That's a 25% hit rate for the guys you identified as the best in JUCO. That's why relying on JUCOs is a laughably bad "strategy"
So we are going to ignore the guys from the area who did well and only stick to guys that an internet forum poster thought would be good based on offers, stats, etc?
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Lonnie Kruger = YES
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:15 AM   #49
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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Originally Posted by thebigabd View Post
Don't know. I am not a D1 head coach with recruiting connections that gets paid to go evaluate talent and watch these guys play.

Last year it ended up being Mason Jones and Devonte Bandoo... They went to Arkansas and Baylor. Mason Jones was in Oklahoma and apparently Kruger didn't even know he existed.

There are some players in mind like Taz Sherman, going to WVU, and a couple of others in the area that seemed legit that could help you win next year went un-offered.
How do you know this?
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:39 AM   #50
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

I think we have to find some middle ground here. I appreciate the JUCO information that ABD brings to the board. I personally am not keeping up with any JUCO players unless something draws my attention to them. A lot times its something ABD has posted here. Do I agree that winning consistently at OU hinges on JUCO recruiting...no. Do I think we should abandon JUCO recruiting...no. JUCO just isn't what it used to be. Can you find players that can fill a need and be solid team contributors? Yes. Should OU be bringing in multiple JUCO players a year....absolutley not! (Barring some ridiculous scenario).

There are a lot of crazy high expectations for Alondes Williams next year, some that he might be a starter. The reality of a JUCO guard coming in and starting for this team paints a sad picture of the talent on the roster. A picture I believe to be false, as I think we have some really good talent. If he comes in and sets the world on fire....FANTASTIC! Win for the staff and the team. If he comes in and is a solid bench contributor... that's still a win! I like Williams, but will be better that JB, Harmon, Reaves, Hill?

JUCO is a stopgap to identify a "potential" talent that could address a 1-2 year more immediate need. Identifying a player who is or might be better than a late recruiting high school kid you might be able to bring in.

I think we need to stop building up such high expectations of these JUCO kids. I also think we need to realize there are JUCO kids out there who can help OU from time to time. JUCO to me is like the NBA G League. Some kids can look like stars but just not be major conference caliber players. That doesn't diminish their JUCO accomplishments. Sometimes you just don't know if a kids game can translate from JUCO to D1 until it does or doesn't happen. It's not their fault we sometimes set unattainable goals for them as players.
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