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Old 04-23-2019, 10:06 AM   #76
thebigabd
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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BigABD still not addressing the fact that he threw out 4 JUCO guys that OU was "negligent" in not recruiting.

Three of them were the typical fringe D1 player that comes out of JUCO these days.


Did you ever consider that JUCO competition is so bad that it's really hard to identify the small handful of players that can actually play at the next level, and that maybe Lon would rather take much higher percentage shots on grad transfers or high school kids?


Also funny is it's not like these are elite players. Jones and Bandoo are solid players. They could absolutely be good contributors here, maybe even start. But they don't move the needle, and the overwhelming majority of JUCOs end up like your boys Torres, Trice and Virecuvic: end of the bench guys wasting a scholarship.
So you don't think the staff was negligent in not recruiting a guard in your own state that is better than every guard you have on roster?

Also, let me explain why I am confused by the "we wouldn't more games" thing.

Removing bad players + adding better players = better team. Better team = more wins. This is how my mind is interpreting data.

What I am hearing on here is removing bad players + adding better players = same team. Same team = same wins.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:31 AM   #77
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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So you don't think the staff was negligent in not recruiting a guard in your own state that is better than every guard you have on roster?

Also, let me explain why I am confused by the "we wouldn't more games" thing.

Removing bad players + adding better players = better team. Better team = more wins. This is how my mind is interpreting data.

What I am hearing on here is removing bad players + adding better players = same team. Same team = same wins.

I'm completely fine with the fact that they didn't recruit a kid who averaged 16 and 5 at Conners St. In fact, I'd be pissed if they did recruit him, because that's the kind of low percentage play that leads you to having Ty Lazenby type players on the roster.


You identified 4 JUCOs prior to the season, and 3 of them flat out sucked. You came back after the fact and cherrypicked another guy who wasn't a standout in Juco but has become a decent player at Arkansas (and let's not kid ourselves, he's nothing special; reasonable stats on a bad team). Even ignoring the fact that you cherrypicked Jones after the fact, that's a 40% hit rate, and it's not like the two hits are all-americans.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:54 AM   #78
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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I'm completely fine with the fact that they didn't recruit a kid who averaged 16 and 5 at Conners St. In fact, I'd be pissed if they did recruit him, because that's the kind of low percentage play that leads you to having Ty Lazenby type players on the roster.


You identified 4 JUCOs prior to the season, and 3 of them flat out sucked. You came back after the fact and cherrypicked another guy who wasn't a standout in Juco but has become a decent player at Arkansas (and let's not kid ourselves, he's nothing special; reasonable stats on a bad team). Even ignoring the fact that you cherrypicked Jones after the fact, that's a 40% hit rate, and it's not like the two hits are all-americans.
Lets resolve this issue... Since it keeps coming up. Good thing its offseason.

I don't have a recruiting budget... I don't recruit players... The guys I picked for this particular exercise were selected based on offers, stats, etc. I didn't "evaluate" them... I didn't bring them to my house and have them run drills and stuff..

You are trying to reshape this entire ordeal to something that doesn't matter... "see, the guys you picked weren't good, how could you possibly expect Lon to pick the right guys"... Do you really believe in that sentiment?

Guys like you and me really don't know who is going to be good or not until they get D1. Paid coaches, however, are supposed to be able to identify proper talent starting in their region and working their way out from there. They get paid millions of dollars to do this, develop relationships with local coaches, go to camps, invite people to campus, etc.

So now lets address your claim.... I cherry picked someone. The guy I cherry picked was in the home state. Turns out he was the most productive recruit to come out of the state.

We only know what we know now, but I would expect Lon to be aware that there was a really good player down the road. Bring him in for a visit. Have him work out with the guys... Offer him a scholarship if you fancy him.

He repeated this pattern with other players... Aaron Calixte and Miles Reynolds, who combined aren't as valuable as Mason Jones. Why did he go through such effort to bring in Miles Reynolds from California, but expended no effort on Mason Jones?

I didn't know about Mason Jones until I saw he signed with Arkansas... He slipped under my radar of random net research. His coach didn't call me, or email me... I didn't notice him at juco tournaments or showcase events... I didn't have a member on my staff that is there to identify talent for me to evaluate. Because I don't have any of these things.

In other words.... I didn't know about Mason Jones. Maybe that concerns you. But what concerns me is that Lon Kruger didn't know about Mason Jones, and instead went after players who are significantly less valuable.

Had this guy been from Canada, or Washington, or Florida, etc... sure, I wouldn't expect you to know of every diamond in the rough from all over the country. You simply don't need to do that. But it concerns me that we went to Maine, California, New Zealand, Finland, etc while some many of these other guys are right here with no offers.

Thats why I don't go "cherry picking" guys from all over the country. That wouldn't be fair. But guys within 3 hours from your campus? That seems inexcusable to me, unless of course you are bringing in far superior talent, but he isn't... That opens the door for fair criticism, in my opinion. Hopefully that addresses the other complaint, that I always point out that they are 3-4 hours by car away from Norman. You should know these guys inside and out....

Which brings me to the next critique people have of the logic.... "How do you know Lon didn't know them inside and out and chose otherwise"... If I accept that to be true, that means Lon would have had Jones (as an example) in for a visit, worked him out... then compared him to Miles Reynolds, and specifically chose to offer Reynolds a scholarship and not Jones. These recruiting efforts are usually widely reported, which didnt happen here. That is clue #1... The other part is, if he had done that, it seems obvious to me that a paid professional would see that Jones was better than Calixte or Reynolds. If he had done his due diligence on local talent, he wouldn't have made the choice he did unless he was rejected by the primary target.

There you have it... I laid out my entire throught process in what I think is a productive and clear manner. I typed quickly, so I apologize for any errors.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:10 AM   #79
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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That is completely disingenuous and you know it. You are too smart for this... Reynolds has been playing college basketball for 5 years and once conference play hit he was practically unplayable. Averaged 4 ppg on 6% 3pt shooting and 52% free throw shooting... Bandoo was in his first year of college basketball and actually got better, averaging 10ppg in conference play on 44% shooting and 89% foul shooting.
I'm too smart to think that Reynolds played college basketball for five years -- entering last season, he had played three seasons.

I'm also too smart to accept the notion that Bandoo had never played college basketball before last season. He had played two seasons of junior college ball (please note the word "college" in the phrase "junior college ball").

I'm too smart to let you keep moving the goalposts. You can't keep touting junior college players and then pretend that juco ball isn't college basketball and that juco transfers should be held to lower standards.

And I'm too smart to fall for your consistent practice of cherry-picking stats. You can't pick the half-season that matters to you -- well, you can, but it's a bogus argument. The entire season matters, plain and simple.
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:11 PM   #80
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

Bandoo had a very good February and that drove his season stats. But, overall he was slightly better than Reynolds.
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:18 PM   #81
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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Lets resolve this issue... Since it keeps coming up. Good thing its offseason.

I don't have a recruiting budget... I don't recruit players... The guys I picked for this particular exercise were selected based on offers, stats, etc. I didn't "evaluate" them... I didn't bring them to my house and have them run drills and stuff..

You are trying to reshape this entire ordeal to something that doesn't matter... "see, the guys you picked weren't good, how could you possibly expect Lon to pick the right guys"... Do you really believe in that sentiment?

Guys like you and me really don't know who is going to be good or not until they get D1. Paid coaches, however, are supposed to be able to identify proper talent starting in their region and working their way out from there. They get paid millions of dollars to do this, develop relationships with local coaches, go to camps, invite people to campus, etc.

So now lets address your claim.... I cherry picked someone. The guy I cherry picked was in the home state. Turns out he was the most productive recruit to come out of the state.

We only know what we know now, but I would expect Lon to be aware that there was a really good player down the road. Bring him in for a visit. Have him work out with the guys... Offer him a scholarship if you fancy him.

He repeated this pattern with other players... Aaron Calixte and Miles Reynolds, who combined aren't as valuable as Mason Jones. Why did he go through such effort to bring in Miles Reynolds from California, but expended no effort on Mason Jones?

I didn't know about Mason Jones until I saw he signed with Arkansas... He slipped under my radar of random net research. His coach didn't call me, or email me... I didn't notice him at juco tournaments or showcase events... I didn't have a member on my staff that is there to identify talent for me to evaluate. Because I don't have any of these things.

In other words.... I didn't know about Mason Jones. Maybe that concerns you. But what concerns me is that Lon Kruger didn't know about Mason Jones, and instead went after players who are significantly less valuable.

Had this guy been from Canada, or Washington, or Florida, etc... sure, I wouldn't expect you to know of every diamond in the rough from all over the country. You simply don't need to do that. But it concerns me that we went to Maine, California, New Zealand, Finland, etc while some many of these other guys are right here with no offers.

Thats why I don't go "cherry picking" guys from all over the country. That wouldn't be fair. But guys within 3 hours from your campus? That seems inexcusable to me, unless of course you are bringing in far superior talent, but he isn't... That opens the door for fair criticism, in my opinion. Hopefully that addresses the other complaint, that I always point out that they are 3-4 hours by car away from Norman. You should know these guys inside and out....

Which brings me to the next critique people have of the logic.... "How do you know Lon didn't know them inside and out and chose otherwise"... If I accept that to be true, that means Lon would have had Jones (as an example) in for a visit, worked him out... then compared him to Miles Reynolds, and specifically chose to offer Reynolds a scholarship and not Jones. These recruiting efforts are usually widely reported, which didnt happen here. That is clue #1... The other part is, if he had done that, it seems obvious to me that a paid professional would see that Jones was better than Calixte or Reynolds. If he had done his due diligence on local talent, he wouldn't have made the choice he did unless he was rejected by the primary target.

There you have it... I laid out my entire throught process in what I think is a productive and clear manner. I typed quickly, so I apologize for any errors.
One of your many flaws in logic is that, players abilities and quality aren't constantly at a verified equal level.. a player can come in and light it up and suck later.. you act as if all of these players are exactly and always consistent with their abilities too. Players might improve at a school into a player that at any other school they might have never become..

It's one thing to not even recruit spangler... and passing on a Connors state kid..
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:18 AM   #82
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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Lets resolve this issue... Since it keeps coming up. Good thing its offseason.

I don't have a recruiting budget... I don't recruit players... The guys I picked for this particular exercise were selected based on offers, stats, etc. I didn't "evaluate" them... I didn't bring them to my house and have them run drills and stuff..

You are trying to reshape this entire ordeal to something that doesn't matter... "see, the guys you picked weren't good, how could you possibly expect Lon to pick the right guys"... Do you really believe in that sentiment?

Guys like you and me really don't know who is going to be good or not until they get D1. Paid coaches, however, are supposed to be able to identify proper talent starting in their region and working their way out from there. They get paid millions of dollars to do this, develop relationships with local coaches, go to camps, invite people to campus, etc.

So now lets address your claim.... I cherry picked someone. The guy I cherry picked was in the home state. Turns out he was the most productive recruit to come out of the state.

We only know what we know now, but I would expect Lon to be aware that there was a really good player down the road. Bring him in for a visit. Have him work out with the guys... Offer him a scholarship if you fancy him.

He repeated this pattern with other players... Aaron Calixte and Miles Reynolds, who combined aren't as valuable as Mason Jones. Why did he go through such effort to bring in Miles Reynolds from California, but expended no effort on Mason Jones?

I didn't know about Mason Jones until I saw he signed with Arkansas... He slipped under my radar of random net research. His coach didn't call me, or email me... I didn't notice him at juco tournaments or showcase events... I didn't have a member on my staff that is there to identify talent for me to evaluate. Because I don't have any of these things.

In other words.... I didn't know about Mason Jones. Maybe that concerns you. But what concerns me is that Lon Kruger didn't know about Mason Jones, and instead went after players who are significantly less valuable.

Had this guy been from Canada, or Washington, or Florida, etc... sure, I wouldn't expect you to know of every diamond in the rough from all over the country. You simply don't need to do that. But it concerns me that we went to Maine, California, New Zealand, Finland, etc while some many of these other guys are right here with no offers.

Thats why I don't go "cherry picking" guys from all over the country. That wouldn't be fair. But guys within 3 hours from your campus? That seems inexcusable to me, unless of course you are bringing in far superior talent, but he isn't... That opens the door for fair criticism, in my opinion. Hopefully that addresses the other complaint, that I always point out that they are 3-4 hours by car away from Norman. You should know these guys inside and out....

Which brings me to the next critique people have of the logic.... "How do you know Lon didn't know them inside and out and chose otherwise"... If I accept that to be true, that means Lon would have had Jones (as an example) in for a visit, worked him out... then compared him to Miles Reynolds, and specifically chose to offer Reynolds a scholarship and not Jones. These recruiting efforts are usually widely reported, which didnt happen here. That is clue #1... The other part is, if he had done that, it seems obvious to me that a paid professional would see that Jones was better than Calixte or Reynolds. If he had done his due diligence on local talent, he wouldn't have made the choice he did unless he was rejected by the primary target.

There you have it... I laid out my entire throught process in what I think is a productive and clear manner. I typed quickly, so I apologize for any errors.

Once again, the point is that the success rate on JUCOs is horrific. You identified 4 guys that had good offers and JUCO stats, and 3 of them were complete bums. That's about the going rate. You then cherrypicked another local kid who turned out to be a fine player.

These JUCO kids offer an extremely low floor and a low ceiling. You aren't getting all-americans from JUCO, but you can sure as hell find a lot of Ty Lazenby's or Ricky Torres or Austin Trice or Darrion Strong-Moores out there. Year after year you post about a couple of random JUCOs who have become solid D1 players, while ignoring the fact that the overwhelming majority are straight trash.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:47 AM   #83
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

One JUCO on the roster is one JUCO too many.

High school guards. Give me high school guards. Sign as many guards as you can, and always hold back a scholly or two for the next D-1/grad transfer.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:28 AM   #84
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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One JUCO on the roster is one JUCO too many.

High school guards. Give me high school guards. Sign as many guards as you can, and always hold back a scholly or two for the next D-1/grad transfer.
This. Odomes was a worst case scenario in a lot of ways, yet we still got more mileage out of him than any guy Kruger has ever signed here taller than 6'7.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:40 AM   #85
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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One JUCO on the roster is one JUCO too many.

High school guards. Give me high school guards. Sign as many guards as you can, and always hold back a scholly or two for the next D-1/grad transfer.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you and bigabd are going to disagree on this one

I'm definitely somewhere in the middle on this. I like the idea of cherry-picking the best - which is what a once "JUCO Blue Blood" school should be able to do.
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:04 AM   #86
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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I'm definitely somewhere in the middle on this. I like the idea of cherry-picking the best - which is what a once "JUCO Blue Blood" school should be able to do.
I'm in the middle, too, except I don't think it's necessarily easy to spot the good ones. As we've seen, plenty of coaches get fooled every year.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:56 PM   #87
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I'm in the middle, too, except I don't think it's necessarily easy to spot the good ones. As we've seen, plenty of coaches get fooled every year.
Good point...not many Mookie Blaylocks, Harvey Grants and Anthony Bowies to choose from. Finding the Taj Grays, Terrell Everetts and Corey Brewers aren't quite as easy. That said, we went to the Final Four in 2016 without a single player who was in the National Top 100 out of high school. That tells me the coaches know how to evaluate talent, but (maybe I'm being unnecessarily critical) need to devote more effort in finding those JUCO gems.
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Old 04-24-2019, 05:35 PM   #88
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

JUCO ball has always been hit or miss w/ prospects, the problem is the talent at JUCO now is nowhere near what it was; as more kids are qualifying or have other options if they don’t qualify
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Old 04-24-2019, 07:22 PM   #89
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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JUCO ball has always been hit or miss w/ prospects, the problem is the talent at JUCO now is nowhere near what it was; as more kids are qualifying or have other options if they don’t qualify
The Derek Roses of the world somehow manage to qualify.
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:48 PM   #90
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Default Re: JUCO Negligence: The stage is set

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The Derek Roses of the world somehow manage to qualify.
Somebody qualifies for them.
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