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Old 08-29-2021, 09:38 AM   #26
thebigabd
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Default Re: Big Ten, ACC, Pac-12 alliance ?

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Expanding "coast to coast" isn't the answer. Even with adding teams, they take home amount for the Big 12 teams is about to decrease rather substantially. I really doubt WVU and EC want to travel to the West Coast for games, and vice versa. There is a reason no conferences are currently set up that way. I really don't think it's the answer.

BYU is annoying and not a great cultural fit, BUT the remaining Big 12 might not have an option but to consider them. As for UCF, EC, and Cincy, I'm not sure why they would jump to leave the AAC. Big 12, even after expansion, isn't a lock to succeed long-term. Matter of fact, I still think the long-term layout is that we end up with 4 or even 2 main football conferences.

We'll see how it all plays out, but I don't think it's as easy as you make it seem. And I still think Memphis (FedEx money) and Houston (metro-area, quality programs, and Fertita money) make a lot of sense.
The best bet is to simply make the most competitive league possible. All other issues can be worked out. The better the league, the better the TV money, etc.

The league I put forth is a legit league. Boise, Cincy, BYU, and UCF just add so much football value and potential. You could limit the travel by not going to California, and by having a coherent division setup.

In the setup below... OSU would play BYU, KSU, Kansas, Boise, UNLV, and ISU every year. Then rotate 3 games against the other division.

In your example... you say UCF wouldn't want to go west. But in their division they would play Cincy, ECU, WVU, TCU, Tech, and Baylor every year... Then rotate 3 games in the other division. Sometimes that would be Oklahoma, Kansas, etc. They would only end up going to west 1-2 times a year. Not a big deal.

Division A
Oklahoma State
BYU
Kansas State
Kansas
Boise State
Iowa State
UNLV

Division B
TCU
Texas Tech
UCF
ECU
Baylor
WVU
Cincinnati

All focus should be the best league possible, and I think this provides that. There are only 2 teams in this league that will take a lot to fully develop, and thats ECU and UNLV.

If you chop UNLV and go with Memphis for FedEx money, it would look like this (and the travel becomes better too). Memphis also has a lot more basketball potential in this scenario. I'd be fine swapping UNLV for Memphis if I was choosing expansion. They've been a lot better in football and basketball, and have Fedex. It's also more centrally located. UNLV has the best football venue in the world, and would add more "out west" for BYU and Boise, but whatever.

Division A
Oklahoma State
BYU
Kansas State
Kansas
Boise State
Iowa State
TCU

Division B
Texas Tech
Memphis
UCF
ECU
Baylor
WVU
Cincinnati
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Old 08-29-2021, 01:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Big Ten, ACC, Pac-12 alliance ?

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The best bet is to simply make the most competitive league possible. All other issues can be worked out. The better the league, the better the TV money, etc.

The league I put forth is a legit league. Boise, Cincy, BYU, and UCF just add so much football value and potential. You could limit the travel by not going to California, and by having a coherent division setup.

In the setup below... OSU would play BYU, KSU, Kansas, Boise, UNLV, and ISU every year. Then rotate 3 games against the other division.

In your example... you say UCF wouldn't want to go west. But in their division they would play Cincy, ECU, WVU, TCU, Tech, and Baylor every year... Then rotate 3 games in the other division. Sometimes that would be Oklahoma, Kansas, etc. They would only end up going to west 1-2 times a year. Not a big deal.

Division A
Oklahoma State
BYU
Kansas State
Kansas
Boise State
Iowa State
UNLV

Division B
TCU
Texas Tech
UCF
ECU
Baylor
WVU
Cincinnati

All focus should be the best league possible, and I think this provides that. There are only 2 teams in this league that will take a lot to fully develop, and thats ECU and UNLV.

If you chop UNLV and go with Memphis for FedEx money, it would look like this (and the travel becomes better too). Memphis also has a lot more basketball potential in this scenario. I'd be fine swapping UNLV for Memphis if I was choosing expansion. They've been a lot better in football and basketball, and have Fedex. It's also more centrally located. UNLV has the best football venue in the world, and would add more "out west" for BYU and Boise, but whatever.

Division A
Oklahoma State
BYU
Kansas State
Kansas
Boise State
Iowa State
TCU

Division B
Texas Tech
Memphis
UCF
ECU
Baylor
WVU
Cincinnati
No one cares about unlv.. not even unlv students (im marrying an unlv/native las vegan - she never went to 1 game ever). LV'ers largely don't even like the raiders being in las vegas or their stadium, they prefer their actual home team golden knights.
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Old 08-29-2021, 01:36 PM   #28
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Default Re: Big Ten, ACC, Pac-12 alliance ?

The Irate 8 are better off not expanding and keeping the money they get from OU/Tx for longer time and hoping the Pac 12 collapses in a few years and add schools like the Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah in a few years. Maybe add some other schools around that time to get to 16 and get a reasonable deal. That is the only hope they got.
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Old 08-29-2021, 03:30 PM   #29
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The best bet is to simply make the most competitive league possible. All other issues can be worked out. The better the league, the better the TV money, etc.
That is not true. It's all about tv money, and that is all about viewership.

It doesn't matter how good some of those teams are, there just aren't going to be enough eyeballs watching them week in and week out to generate that kind of income. It's just not going to happen. I was slow to accept that as well. If that stuff mattered at all, financially, this realignment stuff would be happening a lot differently. The fact that it isn't just points back to the fact that it's all about the viewership.
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Old 08-30-2021, 10:24 AM   #30
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That is not true. It's all about tv money, and that is all about viewership.

It doesn't matter how good some of those teams are, there just aren't going to be enough eyeballs watching them week in and week out to generate that kind of income. It's just not going to happen. I was slow to accept that as well. If that stuff mattered at all, financially, this realignment stuff would be happening a lot differently. The fact that it isn't just points back to the fact that it's all about the viewership.
Wrong mindset.... it's all about TV money if the old conference alignments were holding up, but now they are destroyed.

Top Tier - Primary motivation is TV money
  • Pac 12
  • Big 10
  • SEC
  • ACC

Tier II - TV money is a consideration, but just having a league is a bigger concern
  • Mountain West
  • American
  • Conference USA

Third Tier - TV money is minimal, and the conferences are more aligned geographically
MAC
Sun Belt

If the Big 12 does what I suggest, they will have more of the Tier II mentality but the conference itself will be stronger than the Tier II schools... They would basically be carving out a spot of their own between Tier II and Top Tier.

You guys aren't presenting legitimate options... For the remaining Big 12 schools, they are just going to have to get smaller and have less TV money. There is no way around it. They have no options left. You guys claim that they can't live on $20 million less in TV money... Why not? UCF survives without huge TV money... Boise survives without huge TV money.

Waiting for the Pac 12 to fail isn't a proactive option... Plus all the schools you mentioned there would be scoffed at for the same reason you guys are scoffing at BYU, UCF, Boise, and Cincy.... Colorado, Arizona, etc aren't much different. Colorado sucks horribly, so does Arizona... UCF, Boise, Cincy, and BYU are all much better options.

It's not like the facilities of the remaining programs are ANY different than whats at the proposed expansion schools...
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Old 08-30-2021, 10:57 AM   #31
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Default Re: Big Ten, ACC, Pac-12 alliance ?

abd,

Every bit of this is about TV money. All sense of fairness, rivalry, geography.....it's all out the window.
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Old 08-30-2021, 02:01 PM   #32
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abd,

Every bit of this is about TV money. All sense of fairness, rivalry, geography.....it's all out the window.
Right, for all the programs in the "First Tier" conferences. The other conferences get like $8 million a year. Big deal. The big 12 is no longer in that list.

You guys are still operating with the mindset that the remaining Big 12 teams are First Tier. They are now $10 million a year TV deal teams. Maybe more.... but not much.

Don't apply OU standards to ISU, Boise State, Kansas State, OSU, Texas Tech, etc.
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Old 08-30-2021, 02:52 PM   #33
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Right, for all the programs in the "First Tier" conferences. The other conferences get like $8 million a year. Big deal. The big 12 is no longer in that list.

You guys are still operating with the mindset that the remaining Big 12 teams are First Tier. They are now $10 million a year TV deal teams. Maybe more.... but not much.

Don't apply OU standards to ISU, Boise State, Kansas State, OSU, Texas Tech, etc.
I see what you are saying, but I think tv markets and eyeballs still matters. Those conferences will have tv contracts coming up at some point too.
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Old 08-30-2021, 03:35 PM   #34
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I see what you are saying, but I think tv markets and eyeballs still matters. Those conferences will have tv contracts coming up at some point too.
Sure, and when the Big 12 raids the best teams from the MWC and AAC the value will increase for the Big 12, and decrease for those other leagues. Maybe the new Big 12 will be like $12 to $15 million a year teams.... and MWC will stay around $5 million along with the American.

The MWC will then move and pick up teams like Idaho and some other crap teams with no potential to replace Boise State... The American will probably raid C-USA... C-USA will raid the sun belt, etc... Or maybe the American and C-USA join forces. Who knows.
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Old 08-30-2021, 06:19 PM   #35
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abd,

Every bit of this is about TV money. All sense of fairness, rivalry, geography.....it's all out the window.
The AAC is trying to go coast to coast essentially and it's a disaster. The fact is the Big 12 as it will be may be a decent basketball league with teams like Memphis. Cincinnati. BYU added. But that won't give them any real football money which is where you get money to pay for everything else. The Irate8 are best off not adding a ton of teams because they would lose the buy out money from OU/Tx faster. They are already going to lose their future contract money and be around the level of the AAC or MWC in tv deals. If a PAC 12 collapses then you got a chance to add enough teams in a region to maybe give you close to the money you lose from OU/Tx but it's still not at that level. But adding teams right away would be losing money right away that they won't get back.

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Old 08-31-2021, 06:12 AM   #36
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The PAC is not going to collapse.
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Old 08-31-2021, 09:36 AM   #37
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The AAC is trying to go coast to coast essentially and it's a disaster. The fact is the Big 12 as it will be may be a decent basketball league with teams like Memphis. Cincinnati. BYU added. But that won't give them any real football money which is where you get money to pay for everything else. The Irate8 are best off not adding a ton of teams because they would lose the buy out money from OU/Tx faster. They are already going to lose their future contract money and be around the level of the AAC or MWC in tv deals. If a PAC 12 collapses then you got a chance to add enough teams in a region to maybe give you close to the money you lose from OU/Tx but it's still not at that level. But adding teams right away would be losing money right away that they won't get back.
Disagree, but understand your position.
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Old 08-31-2021, 05:06 PM   #38
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The PAC is not going to collapse.
It's not likely but I don't see them getting that good a deal when their TV contract comes up in a couple years. They can't even get the PAC 12 network on all providers as it is. The real reason they won't expand anytime soon is because they aren't getting enough money.
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Old 09-02-2021, 11:17 AM   #39
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The AAC is trying to go coast to coast essentially and it's a disaster. The fact is the Big 12 as it will be may be a decent basketball league with teams like Memphis. Cincinnati. BYU added. But that won't give them any real football money which is where you get money to pay for everything else. The Irate8 are best off not adding a ton of teams because they would lose the buy out money from OU/Tx faster. They are already going to lose their future contract money and be around the level of the AAC or MWC in tv deals. If a PAC 12 collapses then you got a chance to add enough teams in a region to maybe give you close to the money you lose from OU/Tx but it's still not at that level. But adding teams right away would be losing money right away that they won't get back.
I'm sure part of the contract of any new teams going into the big/small 12 would say that they are disclaiming any interest in the funds from any prospective buy out from OU/UT. And any new team added, stands to gain way more $$ and prestige leaving their even crappier conferences (other than they run the risk of the big/small 12 dissolving later on down the road, but i think most teams will make that leap even just for the instant credibility boost) So i do not see the buyout money being an issue.

Something will get worked out on our leaving before 2022 season IMO.

Idk if big/small 12 will add new teams or if it will dissolve.. i think it largely depends on KU and then most likely, OSU (as much as it pains me to actually acknowledge that their "brand" has grown..).
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Old 09-02-2021, 03:05 PM   #40
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Well, here are the four favorites to make up the new Big XII Conference:

https://www.espn.com/college-footbal...ources-confirm

It's probably the best they can do under the circumstances...BYU is a bit "high maintenance", but overall, not a bad list. Adding Cincinnati gives WVU a local rival, Houston (thanks to Kelvin) will help with basketball, but need to upgrade their football program. UCF appears to be the weak link here...but dipping into the Florida market may be more lucrative than Idaho.
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Old 09-02-2021, 03:20 PM   #41
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Well, here are the four favorites to make up the new Big XII Conference:

https://www.espn.com/college-footbal...ources-confirm

It's probably the best they can do under the circumstances...BYU is a bit "high maintenance", but overall, not a bad list. Adding Cincinnati gives WVU a local rival, Houston (thanks to Kelvin) will help with basketball, but need to upgrade their football program. UCF appears to be the weak link here...but dipping into the Florida market may be more lucrative than Idaho.
Pretty consistent with what we have been discussing, although I never mention Houston.... And, I still think they should go with 6. If these are the top candidates, they should definitely consider adding two more and getting Boise State and either Memphis, South Florida or East Carolina in addition to it.
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Old 09-02-2021, 03:23 PM   #42
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Division A
Texas Tech
Kansas
Kansas State
TCU
Iowa State
Boise State
BYU

Division B
Oklahoma State
Houston
West Virginia
Cincy
UCF
Memphis
Baylor

Very good league.... Best possible outcome for sure. Have a path to the playoff. Stronger than the Pac 12 in both football and basketball.

Make it happen.
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Old 09-02-2021, 05:06 PM   #43
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Well, here are the four favorites to make up the new Big XII Conference:

https://www.espn.com/college-footbal...ources-confirm

It's probably the best they can do under the circumstances...BYU is a bit "high maintenance", but overall, not a bad list. Adding Cincinnati gives WVU a local rival, Houston (thanks to Kelvin) will help with basketball, but need to upgrade their football program. UCF appears to be the weak link here...but dipping into the Florida market may be more lucrative than Idaho.

The read from the OSU fan board is less than enthusiastic about the announcement. One poster referred to it by stating the conference will be renamed the "Average 12" while another poster mentioned "commuter school" and the conference needed rabid fans and not rabbit fans.
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Old 09-03-2021, 07:14 AM   #44
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The read from the OSU fan board is less than enthusiastic about the announcement. One poster referred to it by stating the conference will be renamed the "Average 12" while another poster mentioned "commuter school" and the conference needed rabid fans and not rabbit fans.
Given the options they (OSU) have (or don't have), they should be pretty happy. It's a league they have a chance to "lead" in football, if they get their crap together.

I like it. That looks like a fun league to me, and it consists of adding many of the same teams that I was interested in adding when the Big 12 was looking at expansion a few years ago.

That is one heck of a basketball league.
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Old 09-03-2021, 08:45 AM   #45
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Division A
Texas Tech
Kansas
Kansas State
TCU
Iowa State
Boise State
BYU

Division B
Oklahoma State
Houston
West Virginia
Cincy
UCF
Memphis
Baylor

Very good league.... Best possible outcome for sure. Have a path to the playoff. Stronger than the Pac 12 in both football and basketball.

Make it happen.
That's a very solid basketball league, football will be average. Have to think recruiting will take a big hit with the remaining teams with OU & Texas gone.
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Old 09-03-2021, 11:03 AM   #46
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That's a very solid basketball league, football will be average. Have to think recruiting will take a big hit with the remaining teams with OU & Texas gone.
It's better than the Pac 12 in football.... And yes, very good basketball league.
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Old 09-03-2021, 11:13 AM   #47
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It's better than the Pac 12 in football.... And yes, very good basketball league.
I don't think it is. No one is as consistently good as Oregon. Washington has been better than all as well, USC is like Texas where they have the ability to be a top 5 program again under the right coach. Also the Big12 will get much worse with recruiting since OU & Texas are leaving.
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Old 09-03-2021, 11:14 AM   #48
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Default Re: Big Ten, ACC, Pac-12 alliance ?

The professional guessers are saying Houston in place of Boise State.

I wonder what Kelvin would think about that?
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Old 09-03-2021, 12:28 PM   #49
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It's better than the Pac 12 in football.... And yes, very good basketball league.
Sorry, abd, but there is no way that proposed new Big XII is as good as the PAC-12 in football. And like others have pointed out, OU and Texas leaving will negatively impact the recruiting. It is a good basketball league, though. Houston and Cincinnati will be great challenges for the likes of Kansas and Baylor.
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Old 09-04-2021, 04:00 PM   #50
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Sorry, abd, but there is no way that proposed new Big XII is as good as the PAC-12 in football. And like others have pointed out, OU and Texas leaving will negatively impact the recruiting. It is a good basketball league, though. Houston and Cincinnati will be great challenges for the likes of Kansas and Baylor.
Come on man... that league is not very good. Bunch of has-been's and **** programs. UCLA has been god-awful for a long time. Cal is never good. Colorado sucks... Oregon, USC, and Stanford are the only legit programs in that league.
  • Oregon State - Terrible
  • Washington State without Leach - Terrible
  • Arizona - Terrible
  • Colorado - Terrible
  • Cal - Terrible
  • Arizona State - Terrible (5 winning seasons in last 10 years... 5-7 win team consistently)
  • UCLA - Terrible (3-4, 4-8, 3-9, 6-7, 4-8 last 5 seasons)
  • Oregon - Good
  • Washington - Good, nothin great
  • USC - Good, nothin great since Pete Carroll left a long time ago
  • Utah - Ok...
  • Stanford - Good

The only mistake I am seeing so far with the Big 12 is not adding Boise and one other and getting to 14. Boise adds just enough more football credibility, but it's already a good league.

Get Boise State signed up and this league is in business. They want to join. Their athletic director said it yesterday. Grab Memphis and Boise and and you've got a really fun league for football and a really good basketball league.
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