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Old 05-21-2019, 11:21 AM   #201
WichitaSooner
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Originally Posted by SoonerTraveler View Post
Best question on the thread!

Our expectations are low because Lon has caused us to lower our expectations. It is clear that Lon cannot sustain even a slightly above .500 conference record. My impression is that some fans find that perfectly acceptable as long as it is Lon, and will defend Lon's mediocrity to their last breaths.

I cannot figure it out. Maybe it is because Lon is a Kansas boy, born and raised, and people defend his mediocrity because of that (?). Heck, that is as good of guess as any.

My, how Oklahoma Basketball has fallen. But it does not matter. Lon gets a free pass no matter how low he consistently finishes in the conference. Those are the new expectations. And that is just fine, apparently.

Why were the expectations at OU so low 7 years into Lon’s tenure? Because that is the program that OU Basketball has become. But, based on the comments of some, Lon is not responsible nor accountable. And frankly, Lon does not seem all that bothered by it (but that is just my impression). If Lon still has any competitive fire, it is not apparent to me. He has lost so many conference games, I guess he has gotten used to it.
And how does he get a free pass? He gets bashed daily on this board for his timeout strategy, recruiting, work ethic, offensive schemes, defensive focus, giving Trae too much freedom, players not developing, etc. I mean, no one has lynched him, so I guess if that is a free pass . . . ok?
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:25 AM   #202
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Why were the expectations at OU so low 7 years into Lon’s tenure?
That's a perfectly fair question, and the answer is, I feel confident in saying, a multi-faceted one. Some factors that surely came into play are:

1.Four starters from one of the best teams in our history graduated all at once.
2. Our best two assistants followed those seniors out the door.
3. Some of the recruits that were expected to be quality players didn't pan out.
4. We took on too many players who were projects, and virtually none of them panned out.
5. As OU was struggling to overcome the above factors, the Big 12 improved overall.

Even a quality program can experience an unexpected dip -- in on-court success, in recruiting. I could name a number of previous examples at OU, but surely the members of this board don't need me to do that.

I offer none of the above as excuses, but rather as factors that very likely played a role in our downturn.

Last season went a little better than most of you predicted -- that's a plain fact -- and that's a silver lining, albeit an admittedly very slim one. But throw in the highly ranked recruiting class we have coming in, and I'm feeling hopeful about the future. Is that really so hard to grasp? I've moved on from the past three seasons -- they're over and done with -- and I'm not going to freak out in advance about the coming season. There'll be plenty of time to do that if and when it goes south.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:45 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by SoonerTraveler View Post
Best question on the thread!

Our expectations are low because Lon has caused us to lower our expectations. It is clear that Lon cannot sustain even a slightly above .500 conference record. My impression is that some fans find that perfectly acceptable as long as it is Lon, and will defend Lon's mediocrity to their last breaths.

I cannot figure it out. Maybe it is because Lon is a Kansas boy, born and raised, and people defend his mediocrity because of that (?). Heck, that is as good of guess as any.

My, how Oklahoma Basketball has fallen. But it does not matter. Lon gets a free pass no matter how low he consistently finishes in the conference. Those are the new expectations. And that is just fine, apparently.

Why were the expectations at OU so low 7 years into Lon’s tenure? Because that is the program that OU Basketball has become. But, based on the comments of some, Lon is not responsible nor accountable. And frankly, Lon does not seem all that bothered by it (but that is just my impression). If Lon still has any competitive fire, it is not apparent to me. He has lost so many conference games, I guess he has gotten used to it.
that is not really clear and as has been pointed out hundreds of times now this is a much harder league than it ever has been
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:53 AM   #204
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I generally respect your posts, but these might be two of the dumber things I have seen in a single post. The first doesn't even make sense. What on Earth does Lon's home state have to do with anything?
I guess you did not notice my question mark, even though you included it in bold. Maybe my point was too subtle for your brilliance. The first sentence of that paragraph was:

... I cannot figure it out.

It was a follow-on to the previous paragraph which ended:

... My impression is that some fans find that perfectly acceptable as long as it is Lon, and will defend Lon's mediocrity to their last breaths.

The Kansas reference (with the question mark) was just an example to show that I am at a loss to come up with a logical or acceptable reason why some defend Lon's mediocrity without exception.

I hope that helps you understand my point of view.


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As for the second bolded statement, this is the exact type of lazy, false narrative that so many here seem to believe. "Gee, Lon doesn't scream and yell, he doesn't publicly dress down his players, he doesn't look like he is ready to have a stroke like Gregg Marshall, Mick Cronin, etc., so he must not be competitive." Not only is that stupid, it is 180 degrees from the truth. In any article written about Lon, one of the first things people mention, including opposing coaches, is that he is one of the most competitive people they have ever met. But again, since he doesn't rant and rave, he just doesn't care. That must be why Federer and Sampras were/are such crappy tennis players -- they never argue and act out, so, clearly, they are just out there for fun and don't care as much as the guys who break racquets and yell at the linesmen and chair umpire.
Here, you misrepresent (or misinterpret) my words. Never once in all the years on this board will you find a post by me that is favorable (in any way) about the demeanor or antics of coaches like Bobby Knight or Gregg Marshal. After your misrepresentation, you then say "stupid." Well, I shall never, never forget that when I read any postings by you, as I now have insight into your true character as a human being. Also, you are the one that was "lazy" to assume something that was not said.

Then, you add some reference about tennis players. (I do not follow tennis so I had to query the internet to see who these fellows are.)

My personal impression is that Lon is retired in place, and as such he is not highly motivated to maintain the program at a level near the top on the conference. It has nothing to do with antics and personality. That is my impression based on what Lon is doing .. losing more conference games than he wins, and taking no significant steps, or showing no urgency to make things better.

That is my impression. You are welcome to have a different impression. Its a free country.

Anyway, this has been very educational, as I now know what type of person you are. Someone that uses "stupid" and "lazy" when they do not even comprehend the point.

Thank you for that.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:01 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by SoonerTraveler View Post
Best question on the thread!

Our expectations are low because Lon has caused us to lower our expectations. It is clear that Lon cannot sustain even a slightly above .500 conference record. My impression is that some fans find that perfectly acceptable as long as it is Lon, and will defend Lon's mediocrity to their last breaths.

I cannot figure it out. Maybe it is because Lon is a Kansas boy, born and raised, and people defend his mediocrity because of that (?). Heck, that is as good of guess as any.

My, how Oklahoma Basketball has fallen. But it does not matter. Lon gets a free pass no matter how low he consistently finishes in the conference. Those are the new expectations. And that is just fine, apparently.

Why were the expectations at OU so low 7 years into Lon’s tenure? Because that is the program that OU Basketball has become. But, based on the comments of some, Lon is not responsible nor accountable. And frankly, Lon does not seem all that bothered by it (but that is just my impression). If Lon still has any competitive fire, it is not apparent to me. He has lost so many conference games, I guess he has gotten used to it.



Lon’s not the only one. Sadly, some of our fans have gotten used to it too. Three straight seasons of finishing in the bottom half of the Big 12 Conference seems to be acceptable now. Even worse, a few here get all bent out of shape when loyal fans like us express our own point of view.

This is the first time in more than ten years as an admin on OUHoops that I have been openly honest about how I feel. SoonerTraveler has been the model of positivity on this board since it was launched in October, 2008.

There is something wrong when two charter members of the “Sunshine Club” reach a point where they want to see a change in the direction of the basketball program they have supported most of their adult life. I hope some of you will think about that before you assume we’re the enemy because we don’t agree with you.

One more thing. I am not an admin here anymore. I made that clear to the former owner and current owner several months ago. I will continue to support this web site as long as I can...that is If BoulderSooner wants me to be here. I have a personal interest in OUHoops.com, a site I helped to launch more than a decade ago. I have invested thousands of hours as a volunteer here, mainly because I love OU basketball and because I have a few friends on this board who have always supported me. If that changes, I will move on with no regrets.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:08 PM   #206
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[/b]

Lon’s not the only one. Sadly, some of our fans have gotten used to it too. Three straight seasons of finishing in the bottom half of the Big 12 Conference seems to be acceptable now. Even worse, a few here get all bent out of shape when loyal fans like us express our own point of view.

This is the first time in more than ten years as an admin on OUHoops that I have been openly honest about how I feel. SoonerTraveler has been the model of positivity on this board since it was launched in October, 2008.

There is something wrong when two charter members of the “Sunshine Club” reach a point where they want to see a change in the direction of the basketball program they have supported most of their adult life. I hope some of you will think about that before you assume we’re the enemy because we don’t agree with you.

One more thing. I am not an admin here anymore. I made that clear to the former owner and current owner several months ago. I will continue to support this web site as long as I can...that is If BoulderSooner wants me to be here. I have a personal interest in OUHoops.com, a site I was involved in launching more than a decade ago. I have invested thousands of hours as a volunteer here, mainly because I love OU basketball and because I have a few friends on this board who have always supported me. If that changes, I will move on with no regrets.
Well, it sucks that the AD does not care what the fans truly want. Even worse, I do not know if he cares about the improvement of the program as a whole (outside of football). Until the tone at the top changes, we won't see any efforts to improve the OU brand and program.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:11 PM   #207
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that is not really clear and as has been pointed out hundreds of times now this is a much harder league than it ever has been
OK. Question: Is it OK to remain for several years in a row towards the bottom of any conference?

I think it is a plus (a good thing) to be part of a good conference. I also think it is an EXCUSE to use that FACT as a defense of sustained mediocrity in that conference. Right or wrong, that is my impression of the Good Conference Argument.

Each and every time I read about the strength of the Big-12, it strikes me as a FACT that is utilized as a EXCUSE. No comparisons are equal, but an Ole Miss football fan could say the same thing about the SEC West. If I was an Old Miss* football fan, would I be satisfied to almost never finish in the top-3 or 4 of the SEC West? I think not. Well, OU basketball has been a bottom feeder in the conference for 3 straight seasons. How many seasons will it take for it to become the norm? I hope we do not find out.

*Thank goodness, I am not an Old Miss football fan.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:12 PM   #208
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My personal impression is that Lon is retired in place, and as such he is not highly motivated to maintain the program at a level near the top on the conference. It has nothing to do with antics and personality. That is my impression based on what Lon is doing .. losing more conference games than he wins, and taking no significant steps, or showing no urgency to make things better.

That is my impression. You are welcome to have a different impression. Its a free country.
I would love to hear an argument against this. Excellent post, Traveler. Keep fighting the good fight.

We've finished in the lower half of the conference three years in a row. Next year looks like four. But watch the product. What are we DOING out there? On what are we hanging our hat? Can anybody tell? Because I cannot. We have pieces, but we don't have an ounce of glue.

I don't see it getting much better. I would love to be wrong. I bought in during the winter non-con because we were rebounding and defending, but that ship sailed when we got popped in the mouth during conference. Just like the year before.

Where does it start? Maybe a better question would be....when does it end?
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:32 PM   #209
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[/b]

Lon’s not the only one. Sadly, some of our fans have gotten used to it too. Three straight seasons of finishing in the bottom half of the Big 12 Conference seems to be acceptable now. Even worse, a few here get all bent out of shape when loyal fans like us express our own point of view.

This is the first time in more than ten years as an admin on OUHoops that I have been openly honest about how I feel. SoonerTraveler has been the model of positivity on this board since it was launched in October, 2008.

There is something wrong when two charter members of the “Sunshine Club” reach a point where they want to see a change in the direction of the basketball program they have supported most of their adult life. I hope some of you will think about that before you assume we’re the enemy because we don’t agree with you.
Thank you Ada. I wish I could state things as clearly as you do.

Back in the day, even before this particular message board ... I cannot even remember how many times I was called a "sunshine pumper" by some that thought year-after-year 20+ win seasons and top-4 finishes in the conference were never good enough. Expectations were even higher.

Now, the inability to sustain 20+ win seasons and top-4 finishes in the conference seems to be good enough. Times have changes for sure. What was considered mediocre before, seems unattainable now.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:34 PM   #210
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It's one thing to be optimistic about our future. It's another thing to defend the past 3 years.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:46 PM   #211
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It's one thing to be optimistic about our future. It's another thing to defend the past 3 years.
Well said, Eielson! You summarized this debate in one short paragraph.

I will continue to be cautiously optimistic about our program’s future. End of story!
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:00 PM   #212
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I guess you did not notice my question mark, even though you included it in bold. Maybe my point was too subtle for your brilliance. The first sentence of that paragraph was:

... I cannot figure it out.

It was a follow-on to the previous paragraph which ended:

... My impression is that some fans find that perfectly acceptable as long as it is Lon, and will defend Lon's mediocrity to their last breaths.

The Kansas reference (with the question mark) was just an example to show that I am at a loss to come up with a logical or acceptable reason why some defend Lon's mediocrity without exception.

I hope that helps you understand my point of view.




Here, you misrepresent (or misinterpret) my words. Never once in all the years on this board will you find a post by me that is favorable (in any way) about the demeanor or antics of coaches like Bobby Knight or Gregg Marshal. After your misrepresentation, you then say "stupid." Well, I shall never, never forget that when I read any postings by you, as I now have insight into your true character as a human being. Also, you are the one that was "lazy" to assume something that was not said.

Then, you add some reference about tennis players. (I do not follow tennis so I had to query the internet to see who these fellows are.)

My personal impression is that Lon is retired in place, and as such he is not highly motivated to maintain the program at a level near the top on the conference. It has nothing to do with antics and personality. That is my impression based on what Lon is doing .. losing more conference games than he wins, and taking no significant steps, or showing no urgency to make things better.

That is my impression. You are welcome to have a different impression. Its a free country.

Anyway, this has been very educational, as I now know what type of person you are. Someone that uses "stupid" and "lazy" when they do not even comprehend the point.

Thank you for that.

WichitaSooner is a contrarian. He argues to argue. Those types of people are the worst, and it's really not worth engaging with him.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:21 PM   #213
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WichitaSooner is a contrarian. He argues to argue. Those types of people are the worst, and it's really not worth engaging with him.
I think "contrarian" is a pretty good way to describe him. I don't think its intentional, but he would likely argue with a fence post.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:36 PM   #214
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I think "contrarian" is a pretty good way to describe him. I don't think its intentional, but he would likely argue with a fence post.
Funny for you of all people to say this about anyone. You, the guy who proudly proclaims that you start threads with the specific goal of stirring up debate. I, on the other hand, believe everything I state. I have never once argued anything that I don't believe, either on this board or in any other setting. People who do that are simply looking for attention. Sperry dislikes me because I don't think the sky is falling in Lawrence. Others dislike the fact that while I am disappointed in the past three seasons and take losses harder than any rational human should, I don't think Lon should be fired, and because I don't make irrational claims that he is "retired in place." I would suggest that outside the very limited universe of internet message boards, my opinions on all of the aforementioned topics is actually in line with the vast majority of people who follow college basketball. Find me examples of credible college basketball writers or broadcasters who question Lon's work ethic, competiveness, or job status, and I will be surprised. But yeah, I am the one who is a contrarian who just likes to argue, as opposed to the only human being alive who seems to think that the key to having a great program is recruiting 200 juco kids a season.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:56 PM   #215
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While every board has their exceptions, the majority of posters on here don't hate anybody for being overly positive about the program. It's when those overly positive posters start hurling unwarranted personal insults at anybody who would dare question their positivity that the issues arise.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:13 PM   #216
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While every board has their exceptions, the majority of posters on here don't hate anybody for being overly positive about the program. It's when those overly positive posters start hurling unwarranted personal insults at anybody who would dare question their positivity that the issues arise.
The dozens (hundreds?) of posts in which people are called out for saying anything remotely positive suggest otherwise.
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Old 05-21-2019, 06:42 PM   #217
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I’m a big supporter of Lon because I know him. He is a great person and more competitive than any of us realize. Yes the last few years have been disappointing. It ultimately falls on him because we didn’t get the job done. It’s mostly been a result of missing in recruits or having guys not develop.
The biggest issue has been a total lack of leadership by any of our players. The first year was unexpected as you can’t predict illness. A very sad situation which really hurt the team. The last two years our seniors have just didn’t have the personality to lead. Jamuni deciding to not compete was unexpected.
We shall see if the current upperclassmen get the job done. We also need the freshman to contribute early.
I also completely agree with any of you have stated a lack of support by the athletic department!
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:04 PM   #218
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I'm sorry but my memory is getting bad. I've not remembering an illness that affected the team 3 years ago. Wait. The fog has lifted for me. I think I understand now..... Jordan Woodard. It makes sense now. It was compounded by the fact Jordan's assumed backup, Darrion Strong, had a bad shoulder and left us without any experience or depth at point guard. Yep. That hurt us bad.
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Old 05-22-2019, 05:20 AM   #219
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I don't think we can use the illness/injury excuse. ALL teams have that to some degree. Nobody wanted to make excuses for TCU or UT when they lost key guys down the stretch. If losing Woodard hurt that much, it just shows how thin with talent our roster truly was at the time.
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:46 AM   #220
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OK. Question: Is it OK to remain for several years in a row towards the bottom of any conference?

I think it is a plus (a good thing) to be part of a good conference. I also think it is an EXCUSE to use that FACT as a defense of sustained mediocrity in that conference. Right or wrong, that is my impression of the Good Conference Argument.

Each and every time I read about the strength of the Big-12, it strikes me as a FACT that is utilized as a EXCUSE. No comparisons are equal, but an Ole Miss football fan could say the same thing about the SEC West. If I was an Old Miss* football fan, would I be satisfied to almost never finish in the top-3 or 4 of the SEC West? I think not. Well, OU basketball has been a bottom feeder in the conference for 3 straight seasons. How many seasons will it take for it to become the norm? I hope we do not find out.

*Thank goodness, I am not an Old Miss football fan.
OU has not been a "bottom feeder" if the down cycle of OU basketball is back to back NCAA tourney appearances ..winning a game in the NCAA and then losing the the ncaa champion

then that is a GOOD thing


the amount of negativity.... is truly amazing.... and frankly sad ..
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:32 AM   #221
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OU has not been a "bottom feeder" if the down cycle of OU basketball is back to back NCAA tourney appearances ..winning a game in the NCAA and then losing the the ncaa champion

then that is a GOOD thing


the amount of negativity.... is truly amazing.... and frankly sad ..
This is what I’ve been trying to figure out about some of the posters on this board. What is good enough? Would what KSU did this year be good enough? They tied for 1st then lost in the first round of the NCAA tourney. How would that sit with this group? Some will point to Wade being hurt but others already said we shouldn’t use injuries as an excuse because that clearly points to lack of depth for the program (I’m somewhat joking but this was pointed out by other posters when talking about OU’s injury history).

So back to the question if OU had KSU’s season last year would some of those posters consider that a success due to finishing at the top of the league or a failure for losing in the first round of the NCAA tourney?

I get wanting to compete for the league title but if things don’t go the team’s way for some reason or another and they finish 5th but make a run in the tournament to like the sweet 16 or elite 8 is that a success? I would think so but some of the posters here wouldn’t make you feel that way
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:48 AM   #222
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OU has not been a "bottom feeder" if the down cycle of OU basketball is back to back NCAA tourney appearances ..winning a game in the NCAA and then losing the the ncaa champion

then that is a GOOD thing


the amount of negativity.... is truly amazing.... and frankly sad ..
Maybe if we had easily gotten in. We pretty easily could have missed these past two years as well. We're talking one or two wins. OU limping into the tournament isn't something we should be proud of. Especially when it happened two years in a row, falling a season where we lost the most games in program history.
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:32 AM   #223
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Maybe if we had easily gotten in. We pretty easily could have missed these past two years as well. We're talking one or two wins. OU limping into the tournament isn't something we should be proud of. Especially when it happened two years in a row, falling a season where we lost the most games in program history.
they easily got in both of the last 2 years
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Old 05-22-2019, 09:52 AM   #224
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they easily got in both of the last 2 years
No way we get in with 2 less wins.
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:00 AM   #225
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I don't think we can use the illness/injury excuse. ALL teams have that to some degree. Nobody wanted to make excuses for TCU or UT when they lost key guys down the stretch. If losing Woodard hurt that much, it just shows how thin with talent our roster truly was at the time.
When we beat TCU and Texas down the stretch, there were multiple posts commenting on how lucky we were that they were missing key players.
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